The VIPER Garage

Vendor Area => M&M Performance => Topic started by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 09:29:45 AM

Title: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 09:29:45 AM
Anyone on here have these on a Gen 2?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: eucharistos on November 13, 2012, 11:30:17 AM
 :headscratch:

not getting ya syb

 :eatspopcorn:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 11:39:57 AM
:headscratch:

not getting ya syb

 :eatspopcorn:

M&M headers. I see them on a few sites but I have not seen anyone with them. How are they?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: eucharistos on November 13, 2012, 12:42:51 PM
:headscratch:

not getting ya syb

 :eatspopcorn:

what a noob post  :bansign:


you should get better answers soon  :driving:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 13, 2012, 12:57:43 PM
M&M headers. I see them on a few sites but I have not seen anyone with them. How are they?

I have M&M's on my GenIII ...  The quality is very good and they work well, fairly easy to install.  I have an installation how-to in the how-to's here, and it has a clear picture of how they look.  I'll assume that the GenII versions are just as good and similar in construction.  They're made from mild steel instead of stainless which gives them a somewhat deeper tone.  All the flanges are thick and straight, don't leak.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 13, 2012, 01:27:31 PM
I think M&M has a Vendor thread on site?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
I have M&M's on my GenIII ...  The quality is very good and they work well, fairly easy to install.  I have an installation how-to in the how-to's here, and it has a clear picture of how they look.  I'll assume that the GenII versions are just as good and similar in construction.  They're made from mild steel instead of stainless which gives them a somewhat deeper tone.  All the flanges are thick and straight, don't leak.

--CC
  What about corrosion? I assume you got yours coated with something? I don't want ones that will rust in a few years.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 13, 2012, 02:20:33 PM
  What about corrosion? I assume you got yours coated with something? I don't want ones that will rust in a few years.

M&M's come with a coating but I had them shipped to JetHot not coated and had the JetHot extreme coating put on.  JetHot won't corrode.  Not to say that what M&M does is bad, it was personal preference.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 07:19:35 PM
M&M's come with a coating but I had them shipped to JetHot not coated and had the JetHot extreme coating put on.  JetHot won't corrode.  Not to say that what M&M does is bad, it was personal preference.

--CC

Can I assume they are less expensive than other brands because they are not stainless?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 13, 2012, 07:25:18 PM
Can I assume they are less expensive than other brands because they are not stainless?

Yes, and less than Bellanger's which are also mild steel.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 07:39:27 PM
Yes, and less than Bellanger's which are also mild steel.

So who makes the stainless ones? American Racing?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 07:53:34 PM
I looked at your thread and looking at your car almost makes me wish I bought the 2006 :'(
Is the 2006 the same color as the 96?

Headers look great by the way!
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 13, 2012, 08:20:10 PM
So who makes the stainless ones? American Racing?

Yep, ARH and Kooks I think are stainless.  Keep in mind the coating does more than just keeping the corrosion down, if properly done with the correct materials it actually holds the heat inside the pipes which makes more power and helps on everything else in the engine compartment.

I coat stainless ones as well.  The long tubes on the Challenger are ARH stainless, and the long tubes on the truck are MOPAR Performance stainless and JetHot coated.  Still look like new.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 13, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
I looked at your thread and looking at your car almost makes me wish I bought the 2006 :'(
Is the 2006 the same color as the 96?

Headers look great by the way!

Not sure, but it is Viper Blue so probably close.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 13, 2012, 08:28:38 PM
Yep, ARH and Kooks I think are stainless.  Keep in mind the coating does more than just keeping the corrosion down, if properly done with the correct materials it actually holds the heat inside the pipes which makes more power and helps on everything else in the engine compartment.

I coat stainless ones as well.  The long tubes on the Challenger are ARH stainless, and the long tubes on the truck are MOPAR Performance stainless and JetHot coated.  Still look like new.

So, It would be more cost effective and better performance to just buy the M&M's and get them coated?

What does coating cost?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 14, 2012, 06:11:34 AM
So, It would be more cost effective and better performance to just buy the M&M's and get them coated?

What does coating cost?

When I got mine the M&M's came coated with cermachrome which is okay, but they will give you a discount for uncoated. If you want to do JetHot instead, just call JetHot and set up an account and get your account ID number.  JetHot will give you an estimate when you set up the account and tell them what the headers are for.  Give that ID to M&M and have them ship you the misc stuff and the headers direct to JetHot and make sure they label your headers with the ID.  They know the drill.

http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/jet-hot-extreme-1300/

Either way they are still more cost effective, and the performance is good.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 14, 2012, 08:23:40 AM
  What about corrosion? I assume you got yours coated with something? I don't want ones that will rust in a few years.

Vipers and rust equals somewhat of an oxymoron.  Pretty much not going to happen.  Nothing gets much more pampered than most Vipers. 

We have over 11 years and 100,000 miles on our jet hot coated Belanger headers.  Never have had an issue.  The Belanger 3” exhaust is just regular aluminized tubing.  No issues there either and we’ve actually been on salty roads several times over the years.  SS also causes adjacent parts to get more brittle and /or melt due to the added heat.  I see no good reason for SS headers.  Actually T304 SS is not even really a good grade of stainless.  It has a fair amount of iron content which can actually contribute to brittleness / cracking over time.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 14, 2012, 08:57:09 AM
Thanks for the info guys!! :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 14, 2012, 12:52:50 PM
The Belangers I had were Jet Hot coated on inside and outside.  They went from shiny (new) to grey (after breakin).   The TNT 5 into 1 headers I kept on my GTS have a Black coating and look like new after 11 years.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 15, 2012, 04:01:47 AM
The Belangers I had were Jet Hot coated on inside and outside.  They went from shiny (new) to grey (after breakin).   The TNT 5 into 1 headers I kept on my GTS have a Black coating and look like new after 11 years.

Has anyone done a comparison of them all to see which one gives the most added hp/tq or are the all pretty much the same?

I don't want ones that leak. Which one is the best for sealing?

I guess the thing that caught my eye is that these, M&M are designed by guys who own Vipers.

Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 15, 2012, 08:08:02 AM
Has anyone done a comparison of them all to see which one gives the most added hp/tq or are the all pretty much the same?

I don't want ones that leak. Which one is the best for sealing?

I guess the thing that caught my eye is that these, M&M are designed by guys who own Vipers.

Numbers are easy to bandy about. Belangers on 96-99 GEN IIs were in the 40-50HP range.  00-02 around 30.  Mine was around 30.  They are a 5/3/1 stepped header.  Some say that for turbo or blown applications, the pickle restricts flow.  I'm no expert, but our 5 pound Roe cars are putting out big power for 5 pounders  593RWHP/636RWTQ.  That's a good 40 HP over average. Maybe it applies for bigger blowers, but if stock or mildly blown...shouldn't be a problem at all.  .....and then there is the Belanger rumble  :2thumbsup:

Mine turned a grayish color too...although it took over a year.   No problem for me.  I know nothing about M&M headers….likely a fine product.  We were one of the very early 00-02 cars to get Belangers back in 4/01.  The fit was perfect.  They have never leaked.  I think I tightened a couple nuts a ¼ to a 1/3 turn when we hit about 30,000 miles on them.  We also have Belangers/hi flow cats/3” Corsa track exhaust on the bumblebee 01 ACR.  Never anissue there either.

The Belanger family has been making performance exhaust for muscle cars / drag racing since the mid 50s I believe.  They are in Phoenix.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 15, 2012, 02:07:36 PM
40 t0 50 hp by just switching to headers? Does that include a tune with that?

I guess I will just have to flip a coin between the Belangers and the M&Ms.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 15, 2012, 02:52:42 PM
40 t0 50 hp by just switching to headers? Does that include a tune with that?

I guess I will just have to flip a coin between the Belangers and the M&Ms.

I already had a tune, albeit not a very good one, and all I did was add the M&M's and my GenIII went pretty close to 38hp/30tq +- over 3 runs on the dyno with no other changes to the engine or the driveline. On the same dyno as the previous runs and at fairly close ambient conditions.  That was in 90'F heat.  I had the headers built without the pickle.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 15, 2012, 04:22:56 PM
40 t0 50 hp by just switching to headers? Does that include a tune with that?

I guess I will just have to flip a coin between the Belangers and the M&Ms.

That was a pretty standard power increase for the 96-99s.  No tune.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 15, 2012, 04:24:30 PM
I already had a tune, albeit not a very good one, and all I did was add the M&M's and my GenIII went pretty close to 38hp/30tq +- over 3 runs on the dyno with no other changes to the engine or the driveline. On the same dyno as the previous runs and at fairly close ambient conditions.  That was in 90'F heat.  I had the headers built without the pickle.

--CC

You can't compare a GEN III to a GEN II.  Apples and oranges
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 15, 2012, 10:14:50 PM
You can't compare a GEN III to a GEN II.  Apples and oranges

Totally different on how they react to upgrades?

What is a pickle? And do I need it? Oh brother that did not sound good.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: KNG SNKE on November 16, 2012, 05:08:35 AM
These are hands down the best headers for the Gen 2 both price and performance.  No issues with them, no corrosion, nothing!  I have been running them for years.
They are the same design as belangers without the pickle.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 16, 2012, 08:01:39 AM
Totally different on how they react to upgrades?

What is a pickle? And do I need it? Oh brother that did not sound good.

 :lol: :lol: :lol:  The "pickle" aka velocity spike is a pickle/spike shaped hunk of metal placed inside the header collector between the tubes that allegedly increases the exhaust velocity [hence scavenging effect] by reducing pulse back pressure/interference.  I've gotten better performance on every engine / header combination I've ever tried this on by not having it.  I understand the theory but I've never had it work for me.

Yes you can compare a GenIII and GenII in this area.  I would realistically expect similar gains of ~ 35-40hp/tq

M&M will make them either way, just tell them what you want.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 16, 2012, 10:07:15 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:  The "pickle" aka velocity spike is a pickle/spike shaped hunk of metal placed inside the header collector between the tubes that allegedly increases the exhaust velocity [hence scavenging effect] by reducing pulse back pressure/interference.  I've gotten better performance on every engine / header combination I've ever tried this on by not having it.  I understand the theory but I've never had it work for me.

Yes you can compare a GenIII and GenII in this area.  I would realistically expect similar gains of ~ 35-40hp/tq

M&M will make them either way, just tell them what you want.

--CC


Not sure how you can state that?  But I’m always ready to learn.  I will say with authority that it’s not true for all GEN IIs.  96-99 cars will produce a higher result than 00-02 cars.  That’s a fact. 

Do you have side by side dyno proof for what you’re saying.  The GEN II & III engines are different engines.  I don’t see how the results can be similar

As ‘the pickle’ helped our car produce about 50 more RWHP than average with our 5 pound blower…it seems hard to believe we could get more without it.  5,10,15 HP….pretty much bench racing….it’s nothing you’re going to notice as far as SOTP. 

If you're debating between the M&Ms and Belangers and the M&Ms are a good fit and cheaper…..go for it.  ...but I would do it based on cost and fit....not the pickle business.  The Belanger's have over 50 years in the business.  I have to think they have some chops in the area of exhaust

Steve


Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 17, 2012, 07:07:59 AM
These are hands down the best headers for the Gen 2 both price and performance.  No issues with them, no corrosion, nothing!  I have been running them for years.
They are the same design as belangers without the pickle.

Have you ever had your car checked on a dyno to see what it makes? I have seen a few with the Belanger's I guess with the pickle. I would be curious to see with these M&M,s without the pickle :)

Thanks guys, it is fascinating hearing all the opinions on the performance enhancements. I won't hold my breath for any of those TV weekend shows my husband watches to do a Viper enhancement. You guys should notify one to get a Viper on there.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 17, 2012, 08:21:06 AM
Have you ever had your car checked on a dyno to see what it makes? I have seen a few with the Belanger's I guess with the pickle. I would be curious to see with these M&M,s without the pickle :)

Thanks guys, it is fascinating hearing all the opinions on the performance enhancements. I won't hold my breath for any of those TV weekend shows my husband watches to do a Viper enhancement. You guys should notify one to get a Viper on there.

I don't see what year your car is. but just remember..you can't compare the result from a 96-99 with a 00-02  GEN II.  The engines were not the same...even though they were both rated for 450 HP out of the box. 

....and while more HP is nice to talk about...5 or 10 HP more won't necessarily make your car any faster than a car with 5 or 10 less.

...It does sound like the M&Ms may be the way to go based on cost and fit.  I've never heard M&Ms, but I do like the Belanger rumble.  Of course, the rumble you get has a lot to do with the mufflers you put on.  We have one car with full Belanger (3" Walker Race Bullet mufflers) and one with Belanger headers and 3" Corsa track exhaust.  Completely different sounds.  Belanger is deep and rumbly...the Corsa is much more race car raspy.  I like them both.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: KNG SNKE on November 17, 2012, 12:04:53 PM
I have had mine on the dyno but my car is very modified so my gains would not reflect your gains. Earlier gen 2's will gain more hp due to their crappy manifolds alone.  The motors are very similar though.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 17, 2012, 12:48:20 PM
I have had mine on the dyno but my car is very modified so my gains would not reflect your gains. Earlier gen 2's will gain more hp due to their crappy manifolds alone.  The motors are very similar though.

I think a headered earlier GEN 2 will top out higher than a 00-02 car most every time....regardless of the manifold.  I have a friend with a 97 who hit 459 RWHP with a Belanger set up (headers and exhaust).  Our 00 car did 430 RWHP....same set up ...no additional tuning or mods on either car

Engine differences I'm aware of:  Cast pistons, different cam profile, different pcm programming on the 00-02 cars.  Most 00-02 cars had MIL problems with headers. We did. I run a 96 pcm on our 00 car.    The 96 pcm cures that problem.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 17, 2012, 01:52:38 PM
I think a headered earlier GEN 2 will top out higher than a 00-02 car most every time....regardless of the manifold.  I have a friend with a 97 who hit 459 RWHP with a Belanger set up (headers and exhaust).  Our 00 car did 430 RWHP....same set up ...no additional tuning or mods on either car

Engine differences I'm aware of:  Cast pistons, different cam profile, different pcm programming on the 00-02 cars.  Most 00-02 cars had MIL problems with headers. We did. I run a 96 pcm on our 00 car.    The 96 pcm cures that problem.

Steve

I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 17, 2012, 01:56:56 PM
I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?

What is an MIL problem? Just for my enlightenment.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 17, 2012, 02:26:57 PM
I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?

A Blue/White car.  The original GTS. Very nice!  Classic Viper.  96s are the only bl/whites with stripes through the plate area.  Not so on the 97 (they had paint problems doing it...so discontinued those stripes for the 97)

A MIL is a check engine light. The 00-02 cars will set these lights because, with the header addition, the front O2 sensor is not sending a proper voltage signal back to the pcm for closed loop air/fuel adjustment...the computer doesn't know what to do...so it puts the car into the 'safe' mode...and runs a little richer fuel mixture.  It's not detrimental to the engine, just an annoyance which needs to be cleared out.  It will ocur again and again after a few start cycles each time

Your car, stock, had convertors and resonators/mufflers in the side sills....and a big muffler right behind the exhaust pipes at the back of the car.  Stock exhaust is 2.5".  Regardless of header choice, you would want to run 3" pipe to allow better breathing with the header addition.  I'm not sure what a Borla cat back comes as for size (2.5 or 3)

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 17, 2012, 06:25:49 PM
Thanks guys. There is definitely no muffler in the back now and the pipes are 3 inches in diameter according to my husband. I guess the resonator/mufflers ones on the side are enough for noise control. I have some hardly used high flow cats coming I got from from a friend because the side sill on the passenger side up towards the front is very hot. Also have some other questions about this car but I will start a new thread later when I get time.

I got my service manuals , 3 of them for this car so my husband won't screw up the car :lol: Actually, he is pretty good with cars but Viper are new to us.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 17, 2012, 09:08:27 PM
3?  Not the Diagnostic manuals?

The single Shop/Service Manual is about 3" thick.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 18, 2012, 09:49:35 AM
Thanks guys. There is definitely no muffler in the back now and the pipes are 3 inches in diameter according to my husband. I guess the resonator/mufflers ones on the side are enough for noise control. I have some hardly used high flow cats coming I got from from a friend because the side sill on the passenger side up towards the front is very hot.

If you're not going to be driving a lot of miles, then the mufflers in the side sills are fine....but if you are really going to enjoy the car...then putting a couple mufflers in the back will afford 1000s more miles before they are shot.  I speak from 100,000 miles of experience with headers and exhaust.  The Belanger set up comes with 2 sets of mufflers. At least it used to.   One set for the side sills (where the resonator sits) and one set for the back.  Because of the heat and proximity to the engine, the side sills mufflers are only good for about 20,000 miles before getting blown out and having some rattling noises going on inside them.  The first time around, I replaced all 4, thinking they were all shot (32,000 miles)
....but the rear ones were still good. The 2nd time around, I just got rid of the side sill ones...the rear ones have yet to break up.

I'm not running cats in the 00 car so have no heat issues at all.  I am running high flow cats in the 01 car and there is still big heat issues.  You will burn yourself if you touch them after a good run.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 18, 2012, 12:49:33 PM
Buy Corsa.  Absolutely no drone and they are quietest between 12-1800rpm.  Stainless Steel doesn't rust out.

I've seen inside the bullet 'mufflers' in the side sills - flowthrough with a couple 3/8" x 3/4" slots allowing vibrational frequencies into the SS honeycomb that looks like a muffler.  The 'cans' at the rear of the exhaust are resonators I think.

The Magnaflow muffler I saw (thinking it's the same as the ones on my Twin Turbo and similar to a Mopar exhuast muffler I saw) was a round 6" section that contains 4 smaller pipes flowing through the muffer.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 18, 2012, 02:59:15 PM
I actually like the way it sounds. Kinda loud but not unbearable. My issue was when helping my husband flush the cooling system and replaced with Evan's coolant and I rubbed my leg against the side sill and burned my leg. Not where you exit the car but up towards the front of the side sill. It is slightly discolored from being to hot but the paint is not bubbled. Only on the passenger side, not the drivers's side. I was told this was due to the stock cats being restictive or maybe corked up. Found some slightly used Belanger hi-flow cats from a friend but started wondering about headers for more performance.

Cat back is definetly a 3'' S.S. Borla with no mufflers in the back.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 18, 2012, 03:58:10 PM
Headers are definitely a huge bonus.  I believe the M&Ms are similar to Belanger?  5>2>1  Not sure if they make more than 1 kind.  Re-use the stock heat shields though.

Neither of my GTSs have Cats.  I gutted the cats on my Hemi Ram as it wassupposed to be a couple miles to the gallon better mileage. Used a tuner and after weeks of reading forums and finally emailing for the tune that would remove the rear oxy sensors from the program the tuner unit lost it.  Got pissed and went with sparkplug nonfoulers instead of another tune to remove the nasty rear oxy sensor part of the ecu's programming.  ($18) cost.  I wrote a couple of How To's on it.

My friend has Borla 2.5" exhaust and after cruising from SLC Utah to Vegas it was OK.  His car sounds good ... but corsa sounds best.

One stock GTS actually lit on fire because of the cats, but that is unusual.  The newest Vipers have less restrictive and smaller cats.   I believe the rear 'mufflers' are actually resonators, not mufflers and not restrictive.  Stock has mufflers at the rear.  I think all aftermarket use mufflers in the sidesills that are behind the Cats.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 18, 2012, 04:41:26 PM
Headers are definitely a huge bonus.  I believe the M&Ms are similar to Belanger?  5>2>1  Not sure if they make more than 1 kind.  Re-use the stock heat shields though.

Neither of my GTSs have Cats.  I gutted the cats on my Hemi Ram as it wassupposed to be a couple miles to the gallon better mileage. Used a tuner and after weeks of reading forums and finally emailing for the tune that would remove the rear oxy sensors from the program the tuner unit lost it.  Got pissed and went with sparkplug nonfoulers instead of another tune to remove the nasty rear oxy sensor part of the ecu's programming.  ($18) cost.  I wrote a couple of How To's on it.

My friend has Borla 2.5" exhaust and after cruising from SLC Utah to Vegas it was OK.  His car sounds good ... but corsa sounds best.

One stock GTS actually lit on fire because of the cats, but that is unusual.  The newest Vipers have less restrictive and smaller cats.   I believe the rear 'mufflers' are actually resonators, not mufflers and not restrictive.  Stock has mufflers at the rear.  I think all aftermarket use mufflers in the sidesills that are behind the Cats.

Lucky you.  The non-fouler trick doesn't always work.  For rear O2's, simms or programming are the way to go - they always work.  I have simms in the Viper and the truck, and programming in the Challenger.

The GenIII's got pretty hot in the side-sills from the cats, and really hot in the foot box area as well.  Got rid of the cats and even after running a full tank of gas the side sills are only a little warm to the touch.  The only place that's even near hot is where the exhaust tips pop through -- which you would kind of expect.  I have the MOPAR 3" performance mufflers.  My advice is if you can get rid of the cats do so.  You'll get more HP and a lot less heat in the car.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 18, 2012, 05:17:08 PM
I have Simms in my 2001.  Apparently they're not supposed to change the tune of the engine every few hundred miles, but on my Roe car they did.  I had to unplug the simms and wait for a short while before the ecu started running well again.  Then it would change again.  I could reload the program in the vec and that would also fix it so the issue may have had something to do with the vec, but unplugging the simms would fix the problem ...  I isntalled non-foulers and the problem was gone.

As I said, I used the simms  when the 08 Ram Diablo tuner lost the custom ordered emailed tune - which was stolen n my computer in Texas last Nov.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 18, 2012, 05:53:30 PM
It's wierd, some say get rid of the cats and others want to put them back on because of a rotten smell or yellowing on the rear bumper cover :headscratch: What to do? :idk:


Each car has a mind of it's own I guess.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 18, 2012, 06:26:57 PM
3?  Not the Diagnostic manuals?

The single Shop/Service Manual is about 3" thick.

I got the thick blue covered fsm for a 96GTS, the body and powertrain diagnostics manuals used for about $100 +shipping from the Viper store. They look like almost new! I figured I better get them all for that price.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 18, 2012, 10:30:16 PM
The shop manual you need is NOT those.  Not sure if those are even any good to you?

Check the classifieds and see if there are any Gen 2 shop manuals left.  When I bought my 2000 book (to use on my 2001 GTS) he had 3 left.  Different years.  He was charging $40 plus shipping?  They were mega bucks new, but all the Dealerships get rid of their shop manuals after a certain amount of time and then they are available for reasonable prices.  PartsRack can get them also I believe.  Call Jon and buy everything from him.  The advantage of using JonB for everything is that if he doesn't have it, he knows who has it at the best price.  He also knows who NOT to give any money too ...  Reliability is important.

I have shop/chassis manuals for all my newer perf cars.  Stealth TT came on a DVD (not the way I'd recommend to buy it - get the big fat book).  I also have about 12 Mopar Performance, Direct Connection "Racer Bibles" that Chrysler used to supply so that all us "do it yourself" guys could build race cars.  It used to be like having a complete guide to building the race car you wanted written by the Chrysler engineers.  They discontinued that when Daimler bought the corp and decided that they didn't want to do what GM and Ford couldn't be bothered to do.   :idk:    :'(  I even bought Mopar Performance manuals for the old 2.2 Turbo Dodges.  Before I got divorced I had the original Hustle Stuff magazine that was the first actual perfomance knowledge book ever published for their customers by any car company.   :bow:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 19, 2012, 08:14:42 AM
Belangers are 5/3/1 headers

My Walker race bullet mufflers never rusted, they just broke up inside.  Viper parts are not prone to rust...unless you drive all winter in salt and snow.  Ted may sometimes fit that description  ;)

Corsas are very quiet at cruising RPM as Ted said, but they are a little raspier than the Borla.  I've heard a few with the Borla catback and kinda like it.   All depends on personal preference. ....but Corsa definitely has something right about noise cancellation.  Quiet at cruising, but wake up when you hit it.

I did not put any any heat shields on or add plug shields when I made the header/exhaust swap.  That was 102,000 miles ago.  No issues.  Others have had heat issue without them....but that could be more from all SS systems.  I think they run hotter. 

Without cats on our 00 car, I can easily put my hand on them after a hard run.

Rear O2s.  Ted,  I was not aware that rear O2s had another function than to monitor convertor output.  If you have simms and they are putting out a constant 'OK' voltage signal to the pcm....I don't know how your tune could be affected?  I've had no issues since putting them on at 6K miles on the car....or any issues after the Roe install at 54K

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 19, 2012, 10:56:11 AM
Rear O2 sensors do nothing but monitor the efficiency of the cats.  The PCM doesn't even look at them until you go closed loop, and then all they do is turn on a MIL.  On some of the older PCM's [ 99/00 ] if a rear O2 failed the idle would become erratic, never quite figured that one out but otherwise the car ran fine.

All that being said, my comments are specific to the JTEC PCM, the newer NGC's in the '08 and up are a different story.

I suspect there was something else going sideways there.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 19, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
Rear O2 sensors do nothing but monitor the efficiency of the cats.  The PCM doesn't even look at them until you go closed loop, and then all they do is turn on a MIL.  On some of the older PCM's [ 99/00 ] if a rear O2 failed the idle would become erratic, never quite figured that one out but otherwise the car ran fine.

All that being said, my comments are specific to the JTEC PCM, the newer NGC's in the '08 and up are a different story.

I suspect there was something else going sideways there.

--CC

I'm sure you're speaking from experience.  That's interesting about the 99/00 pcms because I always thought the 96-99 pcms were pretty much the same with altered programming beginning in the 00-02 cars....although I do know of some headered cars setting very intermittent front O2 heater code lights on 99 pcms. 

The 00-02 cars have differently programmed pcms than earlier GEN IIs because of the cast pistons and altered cam profile.  Roe blowers will also frequently set a phantom misfire code with the 00-02 pcms.  Earlier pcms do not. That's why I have a 96 pcm on the car.  ...Takes care of the front O2 heater code light and misfire code

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 19, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
I'm sure you're speaking from experience.  That's interesting about the 99/00 pcms because I always thought the 96-99 pcms were pretty much the same with altered programming beginning in the 00-02 cars....although I do know of some headered cars setting very intermittent front O2 heater code lights on 99 pcms. 

The 00-02 cars have differently programmed pcms than earlier GEN IIs because of the cast pistons and altered cam profile.  Roe blowers will also frequently set a phantom misfire code with the 00-02 pcms.  Earlier pcms do not. That's why I have a 96 pcm on the car.  ...Takes care of the front O2 heater code light and misfire code

Steve

Well yes and no.  MOPAR makes changes to the PCM's every year, and in many instances several times per year.  The changes you're speaking of are related to the front O2's and the timing of a 10 cylinder odd-fire engine which the Viper V10 is. The front O2's are not only a different type of sensor than the rears, but are a different set of routines in the PCM.  Prior to 99 rear O2's didn't even exist on many models, and on the ones that did were not an issue.  Beginning in 99 all the JTEC equipped engines had rear O2's, in many cases only one after the "Y" pipe .  And the code that worked with the rear O2's began to evolve.

The point of this is various routines evolve at different rates / times.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 19, 2012, 05:40:33 PM
Well yes and no.  MOPAR makes changes to the PCM's every year, and in many instances several times per year.  The changes you're speaking of are related to the front O2's and the timing of a 10 cylinder odd-fire engine which the Viper V10 is. The front O2's are not only a different type of sensor than the rears, but are a different set of routines in the PCM.  Prior to 99 rear O2's didn't even exist on many models, and on the ones that did were not an issue.  Beginning in 99 all the JTEC equipped engines had rear O2's, in many cases only one after the "Y" pipe .  And the code that worked with the rear O2's began to evolve.

The point of this is various routines evolve at different rates / times.

--CC

I thought all cars after 1995 or 1996 (and the advent of OBD II diagnostics) were mandated to have rear O2s monitoring convertor A/F output?  All Vipers after 1995 did to my knowledge.  The early Vipers had front O2s and no front heater O2 header light issues.  Those issues started in 2000 with the altered V10 engine due to pistons and milder cam profile to get rid of the neutral gear rattle.

The pcm doesn't look at front O2s before closed loop operation...or at WOT

Am I missing something here?

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 19, 2012, 05:59:19 PM
I thought all cars after 1995 or 1996 (and the advent of OBD II diagnostics) were mandated to have rear O2s monitoring convertor A/F output?  All Vipers after 1995 did to my knowledge.  The early Vipers had front O2s and no front heater O2 header light issues.  Those issues started in 2000 with the altered V10 engine due to pistons and milder cam profile to get rid of the neutral gear rattle.

The pcm doesn't look at front O2s before closed loop operation...or at WOT

Am I missing something here?

Steve

Not all cars are Vipers.  For example a Dakota prior to 97 or 98 designated "Federal Emissions"  didn't have a rear O2.  A Dakota uses a JTEC PCM just with a substantially different program.  And yes, the PCM only uses  front O2 after closed loop, it uses the static maps with a number of correction factors otherwise.  The PCM does check transitions to insure the O2 is properly functioning and that's where the heater codes come from.  Above 75-80% throttle it also uses a set of static maps.  The rear O2 is only used to check the efficiency of the cats and it's only checked after the PCM goes closed loop.  The front and rear aren't related beyond that.  The rear O2 is actually a different type of sensor.  True for all JTEC's regardless of the car it's in.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 19, 2012, 06:57:57 PM
I just had mine checked, 96GTS. It has rear O2 sensors.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 19, 2012, 08:44:07 PM
Not all cars are Vipers.  For example a Dakota prior to 97 or 98 designated "Federal Emissions"  didn't have a rear O2.  A Dakota uses a JTEC PCM just with a substantially different program.  And yes, the PCM only uses  front O2 after closed loop, it uses the static maps with a number of correction factors otherwise.  The PCM does check transitions to insure the O2 is properly functioning and that's where the heater codes come from.  Above 75-80% throttle it also uses a set of static maps.  The rear O2 is only used to check the efficiency of the cats and it's only checked after the PCM goes closed loop.  The front and rear aren't related beyond that.  The rear O2 is actually a different type of sensor.  True for all JTEC's regardless of the car it's in.

--CC

That's what I thought as regards Vipers/pcms/O2s.....which is the nature of the discussion...Didn't know about Dakotas...must of had something to do with the truck loophole in emission law then.  Earlier in this thread, you seemed to put 99/00 pcms in the same boat.  To my knowledge, they are two different things.  You can kinda lump 96-99s together and get pretty much the same result....or 00-02 together...but the 99 doesn't belong in the same group for programming discussion as the 99 models.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: CaptnCrash on November 19, 2012, 09:23:50 PM
That's what I thought as regards Vipers/pcms/O2s.....which is the nature of the discussion...Didn't know about Dakotas...must of had something to do with the truck loophole in emission law then.  Earlier in this thread, you seemed to put 99/00 pcms in the same boat.  To my knowledge, they are two different things.  You can kinda lump 96-99s together and get pretty much the same result....or 00-02 together...but the 99 doesn't belong in the same group for programming discussion as the 99 models.

Steve

As I said before,  various routines in the PCM's evolve at different times.  The 99/00 are quite similar in how they handle the rear O2's which is different than pre 99. With 01 and up the rear O2's are quite a bit different maybe because of emission law changes.  Just because they change a timing or fuel map doesn't mean they change anything else or v/s.

And oh yes, this is based on my experience with Vipers and several other models.  And yes, anything with a JTEC is germane to the conversation by way of illustrating the functionality.  They are all basically the same the biggest difference being the firmware.

--CC
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 19, 2012, 11:35:30 PM
Mine's a 96 ECU.

I was told that my 2001 ECU was much faster than my '96 ECU ... 

Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 20, 2012, 08:42:35 AM
Mine's a 96 ECU.

I was told that my 2001 ECU was much faster than my '96 ECU ...

Are all ecu's on gen 2's interchangable?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 20, 2012, 09:01:31 PM
Well they fit ... but different years will have different tunes etc.  Cams, cast iron exhaust manifolds, ACRs have smooth tubes with K&N filters, etc.

My 96 ECU works through a Vec2/3 subcomputer on my Roe GTS so the tune is adjusted through the Vec - Roe Racing's Viper Engine Controller.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on November 21, 2012, 11:18:46 AM
As I said before,  various routines in the PCM's evolve at different times.  The 99/00 are quite similar in how they handle the rear O2's which is different than pre 99. With 01 and up the rear O2's are quite a bit different maybe because of emission law changes.  Just because they change a timing or fuel map doesn't mean they change anything else or v/s.

And oh yes, this is based on my experience with Vipers and several other models.  And yes, anything with a JTEC is germane to the conversation by way of illustrating the functionality.  They are all basically the same the biggest difference being the firmware.

--CC

The original discussion was about headers.  I mentioned that 00-02 cars would set a front O2 heater code light (unless the O2 is mounted in the wrong place… meaning the 3rd tube instead of the collector area).  They almost invariably do.  96-99 GEN IIs  almost invariably do not.  That’s a fact.  Other than the front heater code light, and to my knowledge, nothing else about a header addition triggers a light with the front O2s....or otherwise.

Then Ted mentioned his rear O2 simms set a light.  He’s the first I’ve heard of doing that with simms in place because the simms should always be sending the proper voltage signal back to signify convertor compliance.  From 96-02, the use of proper simms, regardless of programming nuances, should take care of the MIL for convertor delete.  At least that’s my experience the last 13 years. Ted may have had bad simms.       I guess it’s good to know the multiple tweaking our pcms had over the years, but there’s really  only two things under consideration in this thread: 

Headers on a 00-02 car and the heater code light. 
The function of rear O2s on all 96-02 Vipers

Checking several rear O2 Viper parts places….they carry the same number for replacement for all  96-02 cars

….Not saying there wasn’t, but I can’t seem to easily find any emission law changes between 2000 and 2001.   

I believe you can plug an older GEN II computer into any GEN II.  I don’t think the VEC is required to do this.   With a VEC, The stock pcm runs most everything in closed loop until you put your foot in it.  The JTEC (JEEP/Truck engine Controller)  pcm we use is not a very sophisticated device, but adequate for the day.  Any Jeep/truck mechanic could / can easily troubleshoot our pcms if needed….as one did for ours when the first set of quickfires for the front we got were a tad too long back in 2002 and hit the aluminum heat shield on the left side under heavy TQ……causing all sorts of MILs. 

The car in question is a 96 so there should be no issues with the front O2s….and if the cats are deleted, a simple set of rear O2 simms will take care of the MIL.

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 21, 2012, 02:25:27 PM
Good info. M&M's probably for me . Got a sct tuner(whatever that is) and a hardly used set of Belanger hi-flow cats coming in the mail from a friend all for $450.00 If I paid to much don't tell me. I don't want to know.  :happy:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 21, 2012, 08:12:58 PM
A SCT tuner will let somone tune your car's stock computer for optimium performance (worth $350+) and adjust air/fuel mixture for headers, K&N air filters and smooth tubes (that's you planned mods right?).  In the How To board there is several ways to ad an extra 4 hp by changing the top of the stock airbox.   

I believe that HF Cats are worth $500 an up.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on November 22, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
A SCT tuner will let somone tune your car's stock computer for optimium performance (worth $350+) and adjust air/fuel mixture for headers, K&N air filters and smooth tubes (that's you planned mods right?).  In the How To board there is several ways to ad an extra 4 hp by changing the top of the stock airbox.   

I believe that HF Cats are worth $500 an up.

If that is true then I got one hell of a deal!!!
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on November 22, 2012, 06:57:44 PM
yup :D
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: mbccenter on December 28, 2012, 09:55:59 PM
Wow 5 pages and I am just seeing this.... Don't let the price fool you... I will put the M&M headers against any of the others for quality or performance.  We are just Viper guys getting rid of the "Viper tax"

Any questions give me a call

Matt
651-248-4971
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on January 04, 2013, 04:07:43 PM
Wow 5 pages and I am just seeing this.... Don't let the price fool you... I will put the M&M headers against any of the others for quality or performance.  We are just Viper guys getting rid of the "Viper tax"

Any questions give me a call

Matt
651-248-4971

Don't be a stranger!! These will be in my future. I just know it!
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on February 21, 2013, 03:13:42 PM
Well guy's are predictable and I knew if I waited long enough someone going TT's would be selling a pair. Got them today. Look almost brand new. Now my Husband get's to install. I hope they are easy......


Any tips? Is this similar to the How to on the gen 3?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: mbccenter on February 22, 2013, 11:13:40 PM
Install all the bolts then tighten.  Very easy to do on a gen 2.  Call if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on February 23, 2013, 05:09:16 AM
Install all the bolts then tighten.  Very easy to do on a gen 2.  Call if you have any questions.


Thank you! What about the passenger side, does the big black box have to be removed and do I need locking header bolts?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: KNG SNKE on February 23, 2013, 02:21:01 PM
Yes remove the blower box and no need for locking header bolts.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on February 23, 2013, 04:49:25 PM
Yes remove the blower box and no need for locking header bolts.

Thanks for the tip. He'll get them on when it warms up a bit.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 07, 2013, 06:48:29 PM
Ok, He got them installed. Car sounds awesome and no leaks! He says thanks for your help! Got a check engine light but disconnected battery and it is off I hope for good.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 07, 2013, 08:17:54 PM
Ok, He got them installed. Car sounds awesome and no leaks! He says thanks for your help! Got a check engine light but disconnected battery and it is off I hope for good.

You shouldn't need to but the How to shows the non-fouler way to bypass the CEL if it comes back.  Hopefully you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 08, 2013, 04:23:38 PM
You shouldn't need to but the How to shows the non-fouler way to bypass the CEL if it comes back.  Hopefully you'll be fine.

Got an SCT and will tune it out if it comes back on.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 08, 2013, 04:57:09 PM
I have a SCT tuner for the Hemi in the pickup.  There is no option to remove that program because it's illegal to mess with the emissions.  I emailed the company tuner and asked for an "off road" tune and he wrote it then emailed it to me.  I bought the cables and USB adapter (with program), loaded the SCT programmer with the new tune and then went out and installed it into my truck.  Later there was a CEL and I needed to restore the factory program.  Somone stole my laptop in Texas - with my programs.  The tuner didn't have the program in it anymore so I couldn't add the tune back into the truck.  I installed the nonfoulers and there is no issue with some stupid extra gov required program in the computer.  If you state reads the ECU they would do that to find modifications (like this one) to bust you for ...  Non foulers are merely "spacers" and I'm not sure if they're illegal or not? 
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 08, 2013, 05:44:37 PM
Something to think about. Don't have emissions testing here in the sticks but probably need it legal just in case I move or sell it. Is it normal for a check engine light on newly installed headers?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 08, 2013, 06:48:57 PM
Did you change the oxygen sensor location? 

Instructions with Belanger headers suggest driving easily for 500 miles until ecu adjusts to the a/f difference.

Thought you had a tuner to adj the a/f mix?  What was the code?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 08, 2013, 08:40:21 PM
Did you change the oxygen sensor location? 

Instructions with Belanger headers suggest driving easily for 500 miles until ecu adjusts to the a/f difference.

Thought you had a tuner to adj the a/f mix?  What was the code?

No change in location. Yeah that is what he was thinking, ecu will reset. He hasn't messed with the SCT yet.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 08, 2013, 09:47:06 PM
Depends on what the code thrown is ...  Installing headers would make it lean. 
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: mbccenter on May 10, 2013, 12:52:38 PM
on your car being a 96-97 should not throw a code from header install.  You even have high flow cats so should not be a issue at all.  Has the light come back on?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 10, 2013, 01:47:18 PM
agree.

"Don't have emissions testing here in the sticks"  Sybil, you have no idea what "th sticks" means ...    We have 5 cops to maintain peace for 200 miles.  LOL, and hand out traffic tickets!

Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 10, 2013, 04:22:23 PM
on your car being a 96-97 should not throw a code from header install.  You even have high flow cats so should not be a issue at all.  Has the light come back on?

Nope. He cut the power and let it sit a few mins  Drove it into town and back. Go to go I think. He is really pleased with them and still amazed how simple they were to install. I didn't hear any curse words either :lol:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 10, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Great!  I can teach him curse words if you need me to? :idk:     
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 15, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
Went for a nice drive Sunday. Runs perfect. Nice sound and great product! T&D RR's next and that will be it I guess. Maybe a SC down the road.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: uvbnbit on May 15, 2013, 07:11:17 PM
T&D RR's next and that will be it I guess. Maybe a SC down the road.

Good one !  :lol:  That's what we all say.  Actually, I said I wasn't going to do anything to mine when we got it.  :hayes:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 16, 2013, 02:16:35 AM
Taillights has dyno info that 1.7RR increased his stock type engine (with your 708 cam) by 22bhp!!!!  Engine dyno'd be Exotic Engines. 
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: uvbnbit on May 16, 2013, 03:29:16 AM
Sounds right.  If my memory serves me correct, my RR's/headers made 42 gain. 
Harland Sharps are good to about 700 hp.  T&D's/Jezels, etc recommended above that.  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 16, 2013, 03:11:30 PM
Sounds right.  If my memory serves me correct, my RR's/headers made 42 gain. 


So what do you think my RWHP would be with my mods?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: uvbnbit on May 17, 2013, 08:01:24 AM
So what do you think my RWHP would be with my mods?

I would think the average gain w/headers is in the 12-15 range, RR in the 20-25 range. Typically with K&N's and smooth tubes.
RR are great bang for buck ($750?) where headers/exhaust is in the $3k range?
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Steve 00RT/10 on May 17, 2013, 08:50:17 AM
I would think the average gain w/headers is in the 12-15 range, RR in the 20-25 range. Typically with K&N's and smooth tubes.
RR are great bang for buck ($750?) where headers/exhaust is in the $3k range?

Not sure about that?  96-99 cars typically saw more HP than that with headers and 3" pipe.  00-02 cars maybe 15-20 less HP. I'd also be surprised if the 1.7 RRs saw 20-25 RWHP gain.  We have Harland Sharps on our 00 car...but never dynoed it with them on.  We did dyno the 00 car back in 03 with the Belanger set up.  430 RWHP.  A friend there that day with a similarly equipped 97 did 459 RWHP.  Both cars otherwise stock. 

Steve
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: Sybil TF on May 17, 2013, 09:32:07 AM
Here is what is has in total. K&N filters, smooth tubes, Vipair air duct ,M&M headers, Hi-flow cats, Borla 3 inch cat back and the T& D's are on order.
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: KNG SNKE on May 18, 2013, 12:36:54 PM
Throw some diffuser blades on the back, I start shipping early next week. :)
Title: Re: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
Post by: RTTTTed on May 18, 2013, 11:13:50 PM
Taillights was telling me that his 1.7RR gained him over 20crank hp on the dyno.  He can be more specific when he gets time.

Headers make anywhere from 15-25whp although I've heard people say a gain of 20+whp switching from cast iron to the stock tubing headers (plus 100# lighter)

YOU need to post YOUR numbers, improvements and your review (opinion) of the mods you do.