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The VIPER Garage  |  Vendor Area  |  M&M Performance  |  Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?
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Author Topic: Anyone on here have thes on a Gen 2?  (Read 17926 times)
Steve 00RT/10
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2012, 08:21:06 AM »

Have you ever had your car checked on a dyno to see what it makes? I have seen a few with the Belanger's I guess with the pickle. I would be curious to see with these M&M,s without the pickle :)

Thanks guys, it is fascinating hearing all the opinions on the performance enhancements. I won't hold my breath for any of those TV weekend shows my husband watches to do a Viper enhancement. You guys should notify one to get a Viper on there.

I don't see what year your car is. but just remember..you can't compare the result from a 96-99 with a 00-02  GEN II.  The engines were not the same...even though they were both rated for 450 HP out of the box. 

....and while more HP is nice to talk about...5 or 10 HP more won't necessarily make your car any faster than a car with 5 or 10 less.

...It does sound like the M&Ms may be the way to go based on cost and fit.  I've never heard M&Ms, but I do like the Belanger rumble.  Of course, the rumble you get has a lot to do with the mufflers you put on.  We have one car with full Belanger (3" Walker Race Bullet mufflers) and one with Belanger headers and 3" Corsa track exhaust.  Completely different sounds.  Belanger is deep and rumbly...the Corsa is much more race car raspy.  I like them both.

Steve
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KNG SNKE
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2012, 12:04:53 PM »

I have had mine on the dyno but my car is very modified so my gains would not reflect your gains. Earlier gen 2's will gain more hp due to their crappy manifolds alone.  The motors are very similar though.
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Steve 00RT/10
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2012, 12:48:20 PM »

I have had mine on the dyno but my car is very modified so my gains would not reflect your gains. Earlier gen 2's will gain more hp due to their crappy manifolds alone.  The motors are very similar though.

I think a headered earlier GEN 2 will top out higher than a 00-02 car most every time....regardless of the manifold.  I have a friend with a 97 who hit 459 RWHP with a Belanger set up (headers and exhaust).  Our 00 car did 430 RWHP....same set up ...no additional tuning or mods on either car

Engine differences I'm aware of:  Cast pistons, different cam profile, different pcm programming on the 00-02 cars.  Most 00-02 cars had MIL problems with headers. We did. I run a 96 pcm on our 00 car.    The 96 pcm cures that problem.

Steve
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Sybil TF
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 01:52:38 PM »

I think a headered earlier GEN 2 will top out higher than a 00-02 car most every time....regardless of the manifold.  I have a friend with a 97 who hit 459 RWHP with a Belanger set up (headers and exhaust).  Our 00 car did 430 RWHP....same set up ...no additional tuning or mods on either car

Engine differences I'm aware of:  Cast pistons, different cam profile, different pcm programming on the 00-02 cars.  Most 00-02 cars had MIL problems with headers. We did. I run a 96 pcm on our 00 car.    The 96 pcm cures that problem.

Steve

I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?
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Sybil TF
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 01:56:56 PM »

I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?

What is an MIL problem? Just for my enlightenment.
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Steve 00RT/10
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 02:26:57 PM »

I have a 96gts so I guess I am good no matter what I go with. It has a Borla cat back but I do not see any mufflers. Are they inside the side sill?

A Blue/White car.  The original GTS. Very nice!  Classic Viper.  96s are the only bl/whites with stripes through the plate area.  Not so on the 97 (they had paint problems doing it...so discontinued those stripes for the 97)

A MIL is a check engine light. The 00-02 cars will set these lights because, with the header addition, the front O2 sensor is not sending a proper voltage signal back to the pcm for closed loop air/fuel adjustment...the computer doesn't know what to do...so it puts the car into the 'safe' mode...and runs a little richer fuel mixture.  It's not detrimental to the engine, just an annoyance which needs to be cleared out.  It will ocur again and again after a few start cycles each time

Your car, stock, had convertors and resonators/mufflers in the side sills....and a big muffler right behind the exhaust pipes at the back of the car.  Stock exhaust is 2.5".  Regardless of header choice, you would want to run 3" pipe to allow better breathing with the header addition.  I'm not sure what a Borla cat back comes as for size (2.5 or 3)

Steve
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Sybil TF
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 06:25:49 PM »

Thanks guys. There is definitely no muffler in the back now and the pipes are 3 inches in diameter according to my husband. I guess the resonator/mufflers ones on the side are enough for noise control. I have some hardly used high flow cats coming I got from from a friend because the side sill on the passenger side up towards the front is very hot. Also have some other questions about this car but I will start a new thread later when I get time.

I got my service manuals , 3 of them for this car so my husband won't screw up the car :lol: Actually, he is pretty good with cars but Viper are new to us.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 06:30:00 PM by Sybil TF » Logged
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 09:08:27 PM »

3?  Not the Diagnostic manuals?

The single Shop/Service Manual is about 3" thick.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
Steve 00RT/10
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« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2012, 09:49:35 AM »

Thanks guys. There is definitely no muffler in the back now and the pipes are 3 inches in diameter according to my husband. I guess the resonator/mufflers ones on the side are enough for noise control. I have some hardly used high flow cats coming I got from from a friend because the side sill on the passenger side up towards the front is very hot.

If you're not going to be driving a lot of miles, then the mufflers in the side sills are fine....but if you are really going to enjoy the car...then putting a couple mufflers in the back will afford 1000s more miles before they are shot.  I speak from 100,000 miles of experience with headers and exhaust.  The Belanger set up comes with 2 sets of mufflers. At least it used to.   One set for the side sills (where the resonator sits) and one set for the back.  Because of the heat and proximity to the engine, the side sills mufflers are only good for about 20,000 miles before getting blown out and having some rattling noises going on inside them.  The first time around, I replaced all 4, thinking they were all shot (32,000 miles)
....but the rear ones were still good. The 2nd time around, I just got rid of the side sill ones...the rear ones have yet to break up.

I'm not running cats in the 00 car so have no heat issues at all.  I am running high flow cats in the 01 car and there is still big heat issues.  You will burn yourself if you touch them after a good run.

Steve
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2012, 12:49:33 PM »

Buy Corsa.  Absolutely no drone and they are quietest between 12-1800rpm.  Stainless Steel doesn't rust out.

I've seen inside the bullet 'mufflers' in the side sills - flowthrough with a couple 3/8" x 3/4" slots allowing vibrational frequencies into the SS honeycomb that looks like a muffler.  The 'cans' at the rear of the exhaust are resonators I think.

The Magnaflow muffler I saw (thinking it's the same as the ones on my Twin Turbo and similar to a Mopar exhuast muffler I saw) was a round 6" section that contains 4 smaller pipes flowing through the muffer.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
Sybil TF
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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2012, 02:59:15 PM »

I actually like the way it sounds. Kinda loud but not unbearable. My issue was when helping my husband flush the cooling system and replaced with Evan's coolant and I rubbed my leg against the side sill and burned my leg. Not where you exit the car but up towards the front of the side sill. It is slightly discolored from being to hot but the paint is not bubbled. Only on the passenger side, not the drivers's side. I was told this was due to the stock cats being restictive or maybe corked up. Found some slightly used Belanger hi-flow cats from a friend but started wondering about headers for more performance.

Cat back is definetly a 3'' S.S. Borla with no mufflers in the back.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:42:57 PM by Sybil TF » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2012, 03:58:10 PM »

Headers are definitely a huge bonus.  I believe the M&Ms are similar to Belanger?  5>2>1  Not sure if they make more than 1 kind.  Re-use the stock heat shields though.

Neither of my GTSs have Cats.  I gutted the cats on my Hemi Ram as it wassupposed to be a couple miles to the gallon better mileage. Used a tuner and after weeks of reading forums and finally emailing for the tune that would remove the rear oxy sensors from the program the tuner unit lost it.  Got pissed and went with sparkplug nonfoulers instead of another tune to remove the nasty rear oxy sensor part of the ecu's programming.  ($18) cost.  I wrote a couple of How To's on it.

My friend has Borla 2.5" exhaust and after cruising from SLC Utah to Vegas it was OK.  His car sounds good ... but corsa sounds best.

One stock GTS actually lit on fire because of the cats, but that is unusual.  The newest Vipers have less restrictive and smaller cats.   I believe the rear 'mufflers' are actually resonators, not mufflers and not restrictive.  Stock has mufflers at the rear.  I think all aftermarket use mufflers in the sidesills that are behind the Cats.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2012, 04:41:26 PM »

Headers are definitely a huge bonus.  I believe the M&Ms are similar to Belanger?  5>2>1  Not sure if they make more than 1 kind.  Re-use the stock heat shields though.

Neither of my GTSs have Cats.  I gutted the cats on my Hemi Ram as it wassupposed to be a couple miles to the gallon better mileage. Used a tuner and after weeks of reading forums and finally emailing for the tune that would remove the rear oxy sensors from the program the tuner unit lost it.  Got pissed and went with sparkplug nonfoulers instead of another tune to remove the nasty rear oxy sensor part of the ecu's programming.  ($18) cost.  I wrote a couple of How To's on it.

My friend has Borla 2.5" exhaust and after cruising from SLC Utah to Vegas it was OK.  His car sounds good ... but corsa sounds best.

One stock GTS actually lit on fire because of the cats, but that is unusual.  The newest Vipers have less restrictive and smaller cats.   I believe the rear 'mufflers' are actually resonators, not mufflers and not restrictive.  Stock has mufflers at the rear.  I think all aftermarket use mufflers in the sidesills that are behind the Cats.

Lucky you.  The non-fouler trick doesn't always work.  For rear O2's, simms or programming are the way to go - they always work.  I have simms in the Viper and the truck, and programming in the Challenger.

The GenIII's got pretty hot in the side-sills from the cats, and really hot in the foot box area as well.  Got rid of the cats and even after running a full tank of gas the side sills are only a little warm to the touch.  The only place that's even near hot is where the exhaust tips pop through -- which you would kind of expect.  I have the MOPAR 3" performance mufflers.  My advice is if you can get rid of the cats do so.  You'll get more HP and a lot less heat in the car.

--CC
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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 05:17:08 PM »

I have Simms in my 2001.  Apparently they're not supposed to change the tune of the engine every few hundred miles, but on my Roe car they did.  I had to unplug the simms and wait for a short while before the ecu started running well again.  Then it would change again.  I could reload the program in the vec and that would also fix it so the issue may have had something to do with the vec, but unplugging the simms would fix the problem ...  I isntalled non-foulers and the problem was gone.

As I said, I used the simms  when the 08 Ram Diablo tuner lost the custom ordered emailed tune - which was stolen n my computer in Texas last Nov.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
Sybil TF
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« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2012, 05:53:30 PM »

It's wierd, some say get rid of the cats and others want to put them back on because of a rotten smell or yellowing on the rear bumper cover :headscratch: What to do? :idk:


Each car has a mind of it's own I guess.
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