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The VIPER Garage  |  VCA topics  |  VCA threads  |  Agreed Value Insurance - Scheme?
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Author Topic: Agreed Value Insurance - Scheme?  (Read 4568 times)
Jax92
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 08:21:56 AM »

I wonder if "Steve" has approached the Corvette and Mustang owners club?  Seems to me it would be a much larger market for him.
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Janni
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 10:09:56 AM »

Toronto
Understand - but Steve holds no elected position within the VCA.  He was appointed to the financial oversight committee, but that has no voting ability, nor is the VCA itself spending any money with his company.

I simply see no conflict here and as long as everything is out in the open - these things CAN be a benefit to the membership.

I think that we see dealers like Woodhouse and Roanoke and Tomball being valuable assets - Ben sending 2 ACRs to the 'ring, and having the VCA participate, etc, as being "a good thing" - and yet -he's in business to make money and no one begrudges that....

Just trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater....
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Janni
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 10:12:05 AM »

Steve may not have an "in" with those clubs, and frankly, it's quite possible an insurer wouldn't be THAT interested in insuring cars for declared value that are available in such high numbers / used more frequently as daily drivers, etc.

Sometimes it's not always about "volume", but more about niche.
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JonB - PartsRack
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 10:33:31 AM »

Several firms sell "Stipulated Value" policies, it is NOT a new or unique product.
I bet at least 100 long-time members sell insurance, and even own their own firms.  ACR Steve Katz comes to mind. Great Guy, recommend w/ confidence. Lee Walters in CALIF comes to mind too. 

The "appearance" of a conflict arises when a block of business is simply "HANDED" lock-stock & barrel to a club officer, without even the semblance of an RFP-Bid, or a clear-cut "Value-Added" benefit.   ie "Buy from This Guy and get Zero deductible for Members!!"   That would be great!    Did I miss seeing a member benefit?  Does the club treasury get a commision on sales?  That would be a member benefit.  We have all heard of "Where All The Profit Goes To The Club" in a certain other program......but not one penny did.

Janni, you were vocal on this point:  Anytime a for-profit opportunity arose in past several years, to whom was it simply HANDED ?  Gifted?  It was a Grant-process.   

Please note:  I have always advocated a Business-to-Business network of "Good Guys" who have proved up.  And  this insurance guy may be a good one! I suspect he is.  I would listen to his offers.   

But calling his product a  'Member Benefit', and providing his commercial message to members, and making it look like a sponsor-deal?    Especially after repeated, vocal and aggresive endorsements of the grantors by the insurance guy in question?       Remember:  The very first post here by fake-person JBFY was from a german IP.  It  posted the 'endorsement letter' headed  by the very same insurance guy praising the 2012 incumbents, and using at least 2 sigs without permission!   

Now the same endorser gets a return endorsement of his insurance  offerings by those he endorsed.  Quid-Pro-Quo.         
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:00:51 AM by JonB - PartsRack » Logged
Jax92
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« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 10:37:17 AM »

Steve may not have an "in" with those clubs,

I rest my case.
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Janni
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 12:26:39 PM »

Several firms sell "Stipulated Value" policies, it is NOT a new or unique product.
I bet at least 100 long-time members sell insurance, and even own their own firms.  ACR Steve Katz comes to mind. Great Guy, recommend w/ confidence. Lee Walters in CALIF comes to mind too. 

The "appearance" of a conflict arises when a block of business is simply "HANDED" lock-stock & barrel to a club officer, without even the semblance of an RFP-Bid, or a clear-cut "Value-Added" benefit.   ie "Buy from This Guy and get Zero deductible for Members!!"   That would be great!    Did I miss seeing a member benefit?  Does the club treasury get a commision on sales?  That would be a member benefit.  We have all heard of "Where All The Profit Goes To The Club" in a certain other program......but not one penny did.

Janni, you were vocal on this point:  Anytime a for-profit opportunity arose in past several years, to whom was it simply HANDED ?  Gifted?  It was a Grant-process.   

Please note:  I have always advocated a Business-to-Business network of "Good Guys" who have proved up.  And  this insurance guy may be a good one! I suspect he is.  I would listen to his offers.   

But calling his product a  'Member Benefit', and providing his commercial message to members, and making it look like a sponsor-deal?    Especially after repeated, vocal and aggresive endorsements of the grantors by the insurance guy in question?       Remember:  The very first post here by fake-person JBFY was from a german IP.  It  posted the 'endorsement letter' headed  by the very same insurance guy praising the 2012 incumbents, and using at least 2 sigs without permission!   

Now the same endorser gets a return endorsement of his insurance  offerings by those he endorsed.  Quid-Pro-Quo.       

Steve is not an officer.  No VCA funds are being expended (at least as far as we know) for this "benefit".  Club members are merely being given access to a product that someone thinks might add value to their ownership experience.  No "business is being awarded".

I spend about $550 Million a year in bid products.  I negotiate and authorize.  Now, I don't count anything that is done for our employee "sales" programs where companies offer discounts - as that's not 1) company money and 2) no one is being "made" to buy it.

It's an offer - plain and simple.
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Heisenberg
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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 02:27:46 PM »

it would not be a bad thing to get all of the facts about this offering before defending it. since it was made available at the presidents meeting via the officers and folders containing information about it were handed out at the meeting, the perception is it's a vca endorsement.

i don't know what relationship steve has with imac but imac is the company providing the quote/service for the insurance. at the presidents meeting steve called it his company and the person to contact about a quote is his director or sales for imac. the application contained in the packet has imac header on it.

is imac the broker? chubb is the insurer. what's the relationship there? does imac get a commission for each viper policy underwritten? no commission? does steve eat the cost of having his company and his employee process the application? if so GREAT!  if not, that's not a bad thing either. if he's able to offer the members a service nobody else can, is reasonable in cost and does not bilk the members or vca that's a good thing IMO.

we just don't know. i don't think it would hurt to open about it and put any perception of impropriety to rest. ex-officer having the vca endorse a benefit or "offering" at a national meeting raises questions, legitimate questions.

i wonder if jon would be given the same opportunity to offer something to the members like this and be allowed to present it at a national meeting? or would he be put through the proverbial "full disclosure machine" set to "kill" not "stun" and assuming he comes out squeaky clean would/should the vca endorse it as they're doing with this insurance?

is imac a sponsor paying to advertising this to the members?  :idk:

before anyone defends this insurance feature lets obtain the facts. i seem recall the vpa starting out as a wonderful "offering" and benefit being blindly endorsed and look at how that turned out?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 02:37:46 PM by Heisenberg » Logged
JonB - PartsRack
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 03:04:45 PM »

Steve is not an officer.  No VCA funds are being expended (at least as far as we know) for this "benefit"..........

Not currently an officer, but Steve IS the head of the recently-created Financial Oversight Committee!!    

Please re-read the 'quid-pro-quo' paragraph 4 posts prior ?   

Even if the sales company [might be?] a paid advertisor-sponsor of the club, there is still the "appearance" of a conflict.  Any "others" who have been so endorsed or referred, and  for whom materials have been distributed have to pay for that commercial advertisement.     

Open mind at work:  This MAY simply be an innocent FYI of insurance products from an insurance seller who has done his homework.

And again, for "apperances" sake:  He heads the new  "Financial Oversight Committee."     'Nuff Said.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 09:30:46 AM by JonB - PartsRack » Logged
Janni
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 09:45:37 AM »

Not currently an officer, but Steve IS the head of the recently-created Financial Oversight Committee!!    

Please re-read the 'quid-pro-quo' paragraph 4 posts prior ?   

Even if the sales company [might be?] a paid advertisor-sponsor of the club, there is still the "appearance" of a conflict.  Any "others" who have been so endorsed or referred, and  for whom materials have been distributed have to pay for that commercial advertisement.     

Open mind at work:  This MAY simply be an innocent FYI of insurance products from an insurance seller who has done his homework.

And again, for "apperances" sake:  He heads the new  "Financial Oversight Committee."     'Nuff Said.

Fair enough.  As someone who is in a position to audit the financial transactions of the VCA, it creates the possibility of a conflict of interest by POTENTIALLY being pressured to find a favorable outcome to any financial inquiries lest the access to the VCA membership / VCA endorsement or whatever - being pulled.

It would require some untoward behavior to occur by the VCA (to apply this pressure to find the financials to be spiffy...), but the opportunity is there when you are talking about income being generated by the mere access to the "customers".

While it does not meet the classic sense of close dealing or even "conflict of interest", with the trust issues occurring in the club right now, there could be questions - and - any appearance of impropriety should be avoided.

The act of offering a service / discount to VCA members by anyone associated with the VCA is not inherently a conflict of interest, though.  We see that often - when vendors or other club members offer a discount to the membership.   I believe that we used to get a RaceDeck discount and the Racedeck owner was a VCA member - there's nothing WRONG with this - and it's not like the VCA needed to go out and get bids for other snap together flooring before offering this brand....

But- I can see the potential issue in the case of Steve's company and the position he currently holds on the FOC.  Got it.
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Heisenberg
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2013, 10:22:25 AM »

But- I can see the potential issue in the case of Steve's company and the position he currently holds on the FOC.  Got it.

the racedeck owner was a vca member but he was not a founding member of the vca or past officer or on the foc or involved with the vpa.

i'd also add that steve is a founding member, past officer and guilty by associating with the good ole' boys. i want to add that at the presidents meeting, steve gave his summary about the FOC findings: there were none. the vca/vpa is squeaky clean. no reports were handed out, no financial details discussed just steve's word everything is ok. he said that the foc was merciless in going after lee and others for financial artifacts and that the officers should be commended for a job well done. i don't know him well enough to take his word as gospel. even if that is the case, he should know better and be forthcoming with facts to back up the foc's claims in light of the skepticism that exists in the club.

maybe you know steve better than anyone here. some of us could be wrong in our perceptions. but was he not part of the group of directors that started the vpa? was he on the board with you when the vpa was started? do you know what his involvement in the vpa was/is?

when one looks at the entanglement some of these folks are caught up in, it's very difficult not be pessimistic these days. i'm sorry if this offends anyone but i have to be blunt about it:  it almost appears as if steve was given a glowing endorsement to offer insurance for his work on the foc by the folks that put him on that committee which is lee, marv, cm and the ex-secretary i.e good ole boys.
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Janni
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2013, 11:25:42 AM »

Hi,
Steve was well out of office during the formation of the VPA.  That was more of a Chris Marshall / Bob Carroll era item.

Once Steve was out of office - he did seem to drop away form the club quite a bit - but, obviously will always be a founding member.  He was not on the BoD and has held no elected office after his term as President as far as I know (unless it was local- but I don't think so)  So - he's a strong VCA supporter, but has been pretty well out of the loop on the concerns and day to day issues that the club has been facing since he left.

As for the Financial Oversight Committee - I know that they were given access to records and according to someone on that committee that I trust - they did not find anything problematic.  I can't speak to whether I agree with that - since I was not on the committee, and I do worry a little that no one that had concerns was asked to be on the committee.  I also will say that you can't audit what is not on the books, and ultimately that is my question - so I am not breathing collective sigh of relief based on the results of the FOC.
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Jax92
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 12:04:20 PM »

From Janni---- "they did not find anything problematic"

Then why all the secrecy?  Don't the members of the VCA have a right to the financial information regarding the VPA?  Why can't the VCA members/owners recieve ANY information about their "investment" in the  VPA?  Sales, profits? names of the Officers/directors?  After all, its owned by the members.   The VPA annual report to the state of MI doesn't even name the officers as required by the state.  How about the right to financial information about the VCA?  Where is the report for last year, (the year ended 10 months ago), as required by the by-laws?  What is there about the financial data of both organizations that they don't want to share?  Could be absolutely nothing.  If so, why not share?  As for throwing the baby out with the bath water; if the water is dirty, keep the baby.  If the Tub is dirty throw the baby out, too.
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JonB - PartsRack
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 12:16:02 PM »

....maybe you know steve better than anyone here. some of us could be wrong in our perceptions. but was he not part of the group of directors that started the vpa? was he on the board with you when the vpa was started? do you know what his involvement in the vpa was/is?


[As I have said many times, IF the club had an historian, all this would be available: ]

Steve was the FIRST officer to advocate (in 1996-7 era) the collection and protection of Tooling for the then-discontinued Gen 1 parts, specifically hoods and discontinued G1 items. I was a national officer then, and I agreed. {but for doing it in a different, proven way.}

When in early 2010 two then-and past prezez  announced to the world the board's "approval" of their secret and 99% pre-formed parts biz, (Janni was there and voted YES.) Steve was correctly credited with his foresight and his  'authorship' of the concept of protecting the Gen 1 tooling.  In that regard, Steve "fathered" the original idea.  As such, he was (rightfully)  the first one "outside" the national board to be told about the new biz at that time. 


« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:23:29 PM by JonB - PartsRack » Logged
Janni
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2013, 12:34:01 PM »

Correct - however, he did not have a vote and did not form VPA.  His involvement with the VCA has been limited since his leaving office.  This FOC is the most he's been involved in a while and still carries not official voting power.  A former Pres only is a part of the BoD immediately after serving their term, then they drop off the "official capacity" list.

I still believe that the original PREMISE of having the VCA have access to parts and tooling is a good one.  I voted yes based on the information that was available at the time and the opportunity to have the club in possession of things that could have been lost.  There was much that could not be discussed due to nondisclosure at the time and the upheaval within Chrysler with regard to the future of the Viper program.  I had expected that as this all played out, there would be more full disclosure to be fair to the directors that had voted based on the limited information they were given.  This, obviously, did not occur.

The implementation of the VPA and the oval secretive nature of this business gives me much heartburn since.
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Steve 00RT/10
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2013, 06:21:53 PM »

I'm curious:  Who, and what bank, will put this tooling to use to fabricate parts again?  Especially given a pretty good junk yard inventory.  Especially hoods.

Steve
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