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The VIPER Garage  |  Generation-specific Viper Forums  |  RT/10 & GTS Viper Discussions  |  My Roe/M2 engine needs fixing
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Author Topic: My Roe/M2 engine needs fixing  (Read 18085 times)
RTTTTed
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Viper Nation - ezine
« on: June 26, 2013, 01:09:06 PM »

First, I want to state that I love my Roe supercharged engine built by Larry Macedo of M2 Motorsports.  I am working with Sean Roe and Larry to tear down my engine and reassemble it.  Sean has already described how to upgrade my 2003 intake to the latest version with a little welding.  Larry has told me where to fin my part numbers if I need them.  I assign NO blame to these guys for needing to look inside my engine.  This car made about 690whp when it left M2 after the engine was rebuilt with rockers, 708, forged Ross pistons, etc.  It had water/meth added before I bought it and whp was guestimated to be 720whp.  At that time it would smoke PS1 tires completely through 1st and second doing a few hundred feet of rubber when shifted into 3rd gear.

My Roe supercharged GTS only dyno'd 530whp last weekend.  Tuning added about 30whp to the output, but the blue smoke behind my car upon deceleration indicated a problem with a ring land, valve guides or perhaps valve seals allowing oil to bypass into the combustion chamber.  Interesting that it didn't use much oil or smoke under load.  Also interesting that my Viper was spanking 920bhp Challengers and ZR1s in this condition.  It also beatItalia 458s and 717 TT Ferarri F40s for some reason.  The shop manager said he figures it's because of the 550+wtq ...

 I did a compression test on my supercharged engine yesterday.  The compression was between 125 and 185 with only 3 cylinders at 185.

I purchased a video inspection scope and using that through the spark plug holes I got these views ...





All the piston tops look the same, covered with carbon.  The second view shows the piston edge which seems to have a sharp edge and gives me hope that the pistons are cabon'd up and not destroyed.  This engine has slowly lost power, I thought the difference was tire traction as the power loss was mostly when I upgraded to PS2s and that's when I couldn't  spin the tires all the way through 3rd gear anymore.

Time to take it apart.   :'(
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:14:47 PM by RTTTTed » Logged
1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
Adrnln
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beat on it like its your little brother !

« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 01:22:21 PM »

Hard to tell from pics , but are they oily ?
Hard to believe your engine would form carbon , all that granny driving ?
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 03:46:23 PM »

You know me.  Drive at 12-1500rpm for 24 hrs and then throttle it for a couple seconds.  Throttle it for a couple seconds again, then 30 hours driving home. 
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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beat on it like its your little brother !

« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 04:12:54 PM »

I always suspected that may be the case !
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 05:13:30 PM »

Hard to tell anything from those pics. I would do a leak down test to figure out which cylinders are the worst. Do you have a catch can set up?
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 05:43:47 PM »

Yes I have a catch can ... but it was after a vacuum pump that quit working and was probably more restrictive than helpful.  I pulled the hose off during the dyno.  Didn't notice anything except "steam" coming out the hose and no one said anything about any clouds of smoke during power pulls so ...

Chris did say that the car was burning oil at the beginning of the dyno session.  I don't see any reason for a leakdown test since the squirt of oil upped the compression 14% and there are 7 cylinders that are "off".  I did the compression test and scope inspection to see if there was a reason to pull the heads off and there certainly is.  So I'm yanking the heads.  I'm hoping for some input from Sean Roe or Larry Macedo on doing some porting at the transition between heads and intake as my guess would be a 30+whp improvement from a slight porting at the juncture.  That would require me to make gaskets and I've asked about that as well. 

Blower is off, maybe once I get everything off I should upgrade to a 2.8L? 

With a 10# pulley on the blower my psi was 9psi so I'm assuming that the difference is because I ported the heads and backcut the valves a few years ago.  I won't mine tearing my engine down and redoing stuff if it becomes a much better, more powerful engine when I put it back together ...





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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
ICPREY
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 06:17:28 PM »

Still not sure if the 2.8L upgrade was worth it for me (money wise). Sean will hopefully finish up the tuning this week on mine. Either way I enjoyed doing the upgrade and learned a few things. Ask Sean his thoughts on the 2.8L since he has probably driven my car more than me since the upgrade :lol: I did modify the air box and forward bracket on mine while doing the upgrade.

Why would you need to make gaskets? Just port match to the intake gaskets. You can take quite a bit out of the Roe intake.
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 06:51:31 PM »

I already did that a couple years ago.  If I weld the bottom of the intake I could cut the heads way down 3/8" and that could make as much as 15+% difference in the choke point.

I'm assuming that you got 50whp from the 2.8L upgrade?  I'll get some measurements as far as the porting goes but I wouldn't be surprised if I saw as much hp from porting the restriction point as you got from the 2.8?  Welding the intake would also require machining the surfaces, but I'm waiting for a reply from Sean as I assume that he did research this? 
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 08:15:44 PM »

I changed too many variables to see how much more efficient the 2.8L is compared to the 2.4L. Not really sure if it's worth 50hp. I installed Greg Good heads and a cam at the same time I added the 2.8L (stock short block). We ran out of injectors and the meth system wasn't working right when we dynoed it last time. Dry with no meth and conservative timing it made 630hp/625tq @9lbs of boost with high flow cats and the pickles still installed in the headers. I did notice the boost increased towards the end of the pull and the tq/hp didn't drop off as bad compared to my old set up. That might be because of my cam selection. We've installed new injectors, fixed the meth, and removed the pickles for the next dyno session. Once it's done I'll post up a thread showing the mods and such.

I would PM EllowViper since he has modified his intake by boxing out the bottom. Not sure if it's worth it, we just need a bigger blower like the 3.4L. 

« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:20:53 PM by ICPREY » Logged
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 12:27:53 PM »

There was a SRT10 truck there with the 3.4L blower.  Joe said that he had a Roe blower before he went to his Paxton.  You would have enjoyed yourself Sheldon.  2 Paxton Trucks, a Paxton SRT, Joel's TT GTS, my Roe GTS, a couple SRT10s and at least a half dozen SRT10 trucks.  Several guys drove up from Red Deer and Mike was there for both days with his FE.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 12:41:28 PM by RTTTTed » Logged
1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2013, 04:49:09 PM »

Here's a shot showing where the Roe system could use (in my opinion) the biggest improvement - the transition angle manifold to the head.  The blower overcomes this angle, but I think this is our restriction for the Roe system.  The Paxton (in my opinion) big restriction is the 3" inlet and 90 degree bend before the blower.  Our limit is created by our hood clearance, where as the Paxton is limited by rad support clearance.  Sean has invented a system that fits a twin screw blower under our hoods without cutting!!!   



Here's a side view of the Intake.  CNC machined from a solid block of aluminium ... 



Beautiful, or it will be once I clean it.   :D
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2013, 05:13:23 PM »

For the guys that don't know what it looks like inside the Roe system here is a couple of shots of the Intake with the blower bolted to the top.  This is a version of the Roe blower system from the early 2000s.  Sean has informed me that his newer versions don't have the post but do have a divider down the middle to separate the airflows.  Thanks to Sean I'll weld a divider down mine. 



The pic shows the safety wired blower bolts and the air shield developed by Sean to redirect the airflow away from the front of the engine.



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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2013, 06:18:01 PM »

Since you have it apart, you might want to check the bypass valve for leakage. I know someone on the "Alley" had an issue with his. He tested it with a vacuum hand pump to see if it held vacuum. You could also change out the 90 degree rubber hose with a solid pipe. Some people have complained about theirs collapsing.
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 06:37:46 PM »

Both good ideas.  I tested my bypass valve last year (a week and a half's driving ago) and it was fine.  My hose is good, but if I can find a elbow (paint it) and some colored silicone coupling hose that'd be cool.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 01:12:05 AM »

Finally pulled the head off on the 'bad side'.  Lots of carbon on the pistons tops.  Absolutely NO detonation pits. 



After a light scraping ...



And the shot of a group of cylinders ...



I'm going to guess no piston damage except carbon build up and sticking of the rings ...  lowering the compression in most of the cylinders causing a power loss.  It should be obvious once I take the pistons out of the block.  So far I haven't seen any scratching or scoring of the cylinder walls although I can see the area of the cylinder walls where the piston skirt has polished it.  Definitely in need of a hone. 
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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