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The VIPER Garage  |  Generation-specific Viper Forums  |  RT/10 & GTS Viper Discussions  |  My Roe/M2 engine needs fixing
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Author Topic: My Roe/M2 engine needs fixing  (Read 21953 times)
RTTTTed
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Viper Nation - ezine
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 09:16:35 PM »

Found that all the rings were moveable but the cylinder walls are glazed ...  End gap on the rings was only .036"

I found significant wear on the bearing nearest the front of the engine with #1 cylinder being down to the copper and having a crack for some reason. 



« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 11:09:59 AM by RTTTTed » Logged
1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
jtin
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 09:26:45 PM »

Wow that bearing looks really bad. Is it a rod or a main ? 
How do the rest of them look ?
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 10:04:02 PM »

Here's a pretty good read on diagnosing bearings, they didn't mention anything about cracks though.

http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevite_lagerschade_tech_info.pdf
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Adrnln
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beat on it like its your little brother !

« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2013, 10:05:29 PM »

Looks like good timing on the tear down , is the cracked or seperated half off the rod or cap ?
Was the ring end gap measured at the bottom of the bore , measure at top and bottom will show your taper if any if you don't have a inside micrometer bottom will show your end gap more accurately. 0.036 seems kinda loose we run 0.0065 per inch of bore on the Hemi , with a 4.5 inch bore you could likely go 0.0050- 0.0055  per inch , 4.0 bore  0.020 or so.do you have a ring filer ?
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 12:07:14 PM »

The ROD bearings seem to have more wear towards the front of the engine.  Upon second looks it seems that the cracked bearing is #3 and not #1.  #1/2 as well as the bearings on 5/6 seem to have wear and the rear journals have no noticeable wear.   The cracked bearing was the top.  There looked to be some wear at the crack so I'm gonna guess that the bearing cracked and that caused the wear to the copper.  Can't see any reason for extended wear since the main bearing that feeds oil to it looks like NEW.

Ring end gap is supposed to be between .014" and .055".   So .036" is only half worn.  Seems OK, except for the glazed cylinder walls.  Ring tension feels like new.



 

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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2013, 04:02:48 PM »

The word I get is that the #3 rod bearing is the "flaw" of the engine.  If this would have been a Gen 3 the engine would have failed because instead of the Tri-metal CL77 bearings, Gen 3s come with much softer bearings. 

It seems that checking the #3 rod bearing should be part of a maintenance schedule, especially for HP cars.  All Gen 3s would improve from an upgrade to the CL77 bearings.  Larry Macedo recommends using  Clevite 77 CB481H.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2013, 06:16:44 PM »

Any indication why # 3 bearing is the failure prone one ?
Have you figured out what was causing the smoking ?
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2013, 07:20:23 PM »

#3 is double crossdrilled I think Joel was saying when he wrote his crankshaft modification thread.  The second journal runs out of oil first. 

JonB has a trapdoor kit that can be installed in the oil pan that might prevent this problem if it is because I did a few road courses/AutoXs?  Less than $200 for south of the border I'm thinking of upgrading to that as well. 

I'm not doing well on not spending money on this car,  :lol:   

rocker assy



« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 07:43:36 PM by RTTTTed » Logged
1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2013, 09:28:48 PM »

The Ross Racing forged pistons



All the rod bearings look terrible



Forged Manganese Steel "Cream Puff" connecting rods (same as the other Gen 2 Forged rods).  All Gen 2s come with a forged crankshaft as well.


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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2013, 09:43:13 PM »

Ported Gen 2 heads and ported Gen 3 heads.  The Gen 3 engines main difference is the heads.  Manifold is less hp reportedly.

The difference between the heads after porting is intake valve of a Fen 2 is 1.88" and the intake of a Gen 3 is 2.00".  Valve heads are a different shape.  Before porting the Gen 3s have bigger Intake valves, finer detailing in the ports (less machine interference), more finished combustion chamber and 1.7 roller rockers with Beehive springs. 



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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2013, 09:49:53 PM »

Did the rod bearing stay in the rod and caps , or did the just fall out when flipped upside down. Mine would just fall out like the were over mooned shaped.

That's still not bad considering the miles. I guess now your getting a small taste of what I've been dealing with. Mine looked like that after 2000 miles lol.

Those pistons look identical to the stock diamond piston. Ross must of retain the same compression as stock ?
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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2013, 10:01:44 PM »

How are the crank journals , Ted ?
 Are the rod endes within spec or out of round , # 3 especially !
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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 10:10:54 PM »

Joel, pistons are 9 to 1.  Stock compression is 9.5 to 1. 

I see metal welded into the crankshaft and will post a pic showing some of the balancing of the rod ends that was done at M2 motorsports as well.

The bearings were still crushed into the cap and big ends, only two were beat enough that they lost their 'crush' and fell. 

Yes, the 'taste' of bad bearings is bittersweet.  Bitter that they are obviously worn out and sweet that I am replacing them before they ruined the engine.

I am hoping that the trapdoor kit from JonB will fix the problem.  You're hoping that plugging will solve the problem. 

According to the bearing failure guide posted earlier the bearings might have been failing from the extreme torque at low rpms (lugging).  I never noticed any loss of oil pressure, but will no longer run the light weight oils recomended by Dodge and will upgrade to 15/40s.  Normal oil to start the engine and break it in, then back to synthetics.
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2013, 10:22:47 PM »

Yes Adrnln, all the big ends seem good.  The crankshaft looks fine and normal so I will give it a polish and clean before reassembly with new bearings.

The Carbon deposits were pretty soft and some of the pistons I just scraped off and they were almost clean.  The piston skirts look scuffed, but there is no scratching or gouging to the suface, merely polished so pistons are like new and ring lands are dirty but not baked or filled with crap as I had thought.

I'll pull the heads apart later.

Today's purpose was to pull the parts out of the engine and order replacement parts.  I got that done and now I can start work on upgrading for better oiling and more hp. 

I haven't decided if I should switch to the gen 3 heads as Tony Armour did with his 750whp Roe engine.  Maybe just use the 2.00" valves from the heads and buy new valves for the Gen 3 heads later?  Since I have a valve grinding machine ... 
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2013, 12:25:15 PM »

I broke a pushrod and sent out emails to friends and lucked out when Sean Roe offered to breakup a set to send me one.  Then Archer Racing said they had a single for me.  They're sending it to me today.  Probably more for shipping than the part.  But it's coming together. 
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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