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The VIPER Garage  |  How To Instructions  |  How-to section  |  School me on cylinder heads.
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Author Topic: School me on cylinder heads.  (Read 24551 times)
Dart451
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« on: November 30, 2011, 08:05:02 PM »

I have a 97 gts and looking to see what can me made to fit.

What can my heads be ported to flow?

Whats it take to make third gen fit? Whats flow numbers?

Whats it take to make fourth gen fit? Whats flow numbers?

I heard stryker are going to be reproduced so what do they flow?

Any other options?

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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 09:30:56 PM »

Flow numbers mostly depend on the individual flow bench, set up, in of Merc. etc.

Figure that porting adds about 50rwhp on a 440 n/a.  Stryker heads would work on your stock engine, but they're also not cheap and definitely work better on a forced induction or race engine. 

Porting your Gen 2 heads is a great way to add hp.  I think that JM and Greg Good are considered to be the best porters on the Continent.  Sean Roe ports heads as do I.

Porting can easily add 35-50rwhp on your Viper (my guess) but it depends on the porting job.  It also depends on the valve sizes (expensive to change Valve seats), head shape, etc.  Normally changing valves will usually require Broinze guides as well.  Even little things like a combustion chamber cleanup can increase hp when the seat ridges are removed.  The ports in the heads are very well shaped from the factory and the old DC (now Mopar Performance) used to sell a set of Templates for a "valve pocket job" which would add 25rwhp.  Back cutting the valves adds a lot of extra power.  Although our head ports fit well to the round seats, there is still suface mismatches.  The exhaust ports can be enlarged and smoothed.  A full porting job would reshape the guide areas inside the ports for best flow.  An amateur could grind out the port walls or thin them to the point of cracking into the waterjacket. 

Gen 3 heads add about 50hp, but that includes the Gen 3 1.7 to 1 rocker upgrade as well.  They bolt onto our Gen 2 blocks, but don't have the correct water jacket provisions and no bosses for the power steering pump to be bolted to the front of the head.  Although the Gen 3 uses a different bracket to support the pump I was told this doesn't fit the Gen 2 engine.  Soooo, welding, machining, drilling and threading is probably the easiest way to adapt the heads for the Gen 2 pump. 

Gen 4 heads require a lot of work to make to fit.  Viper Specialty has designed a package to do this.  A "guess" dollar figure I heard was about $15,000.  Mopar Performance sells a Gen 4 top end for the Gen 2 engine that makes about 650bhp - but they didn't tell me how much. 


From stock, a supercharger or TT kit is your best dealk for hp increase.  40% increase in hp with just a supercharger!  Personally, unless you're a power junky (like me) a Roe TS supercharger produces much more power than what the number say because the torque at lower rpm make the car feel like it's producing full power even at 2,000rpm!  Like having a Nitrous system with a throttle!  But the Roe system is limited to about 7-800rwhp (you can add Nitrous though).


My opinion at least.

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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 09:37:19 PM »

Guess I should mention that my first Viper was a 98 GTS and with just Hiflow Cats, RT exhaust, Roe blower kit (8.5# boost) and a Roe Racing water/meth system made 600rwhp/644rwtq!

My second GTS was my (for sale) 2001 Sapphire GTS with pistons, headers, cold air intake, cam, rockers and pushrods, Ross pistons, TBs, RR water/meth, ported heads and aluminium flywheel made 720+ hp.

Then I bought a stock 2000 GTS/ACR with a 580hp Paxton and Nitrous on a stock engine with HF Cats and Corsa exhaust.

Now I bought a 1,000hp (pump gas)/>1500rwhp (race gas) Twin Turbo 99 GTS with everything done to it.
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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 04:28:50 AM »

first need to know your end goals ?

street
track
1/4 mile
N/A
Sc or TT
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Dart451
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 05:44:40 AM »

Thanks for info

This will be more street with occasional 1/4 mile and hopefully a very occasional autocross.
My end goals are not decided, I'm just trying to educate myself on what a solid build platform would be.
Do the intakes switch easy or the bolt patterns different? What about headers?
I keep looking at roe superchargers and like the clean install look and power under the curve.

My 70 Dart has a 517 with B1 heads (flowed 386 at .700 out of box) and produced over 700+ hp on pump gas engine dyno. I know they are not the best heads for street car application but leave me plenty to build on. I will get the rest of fogger plumbed up this spring for a few more ponies.
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 10:36:55 AM »

Thanks for info

This will be more street with occasional 1/4 mile and hopefully a very occasional autocross.
My end goals are not decided, I'm just trying to educate myself on what a solid build platform would be.
Do the intakes switch easy or the bolt patterns different? What about headers?
I keep looking at roe superchargers and like the clean install look and power under the curve.

My 70 Dart has a 517 with B1 heads (flowed 386 at .700 out of box) and produced over 700+ hp on pump gas engine dyno. I know they are not the best heads for street car application but leave me plenty to build on. I will get the rest of fogger plumbed up this spring for a few more ponies.

-Gen-3 Heads will bolt up to Gen-2 Manifolds, but not headers. They also do not have Power Steering provisions.
-Gen-4 Heads not bolt up to ANY Gen-2 or 3 components, and also have to power steering provision.
-Gen-4 based packages are complete upper end packages for this reason.
-Roe Superchargers will not bolt to any Gen-4 parts.
-Gen-4 based packages alone can make near the HP of the basic Roe Blowers, with far better reliability.

Pictures of our [fully optioned] Gen-4 based package Here: http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/648544-Gen-III-to-Gen-IV-Engine-Build
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Dart451
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 10:59:05 AM »

I have been following that thread great work!! Whats a rough base price for the package?

Thats what made me wonder what different between heads and flow. I'm a newbie to the Viper world but not to Mopars.
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 11:10:56 AM »

I have been following that thread great work!! Whats a rough base price for the package?

Thats what made me wonder what different between heads and flow. I'm a newbie to the Viper world but not to Mopars.

The package is still un-priced, but it is looking to be about 14K for a basic-finishes package.

Tom's package has a Billet Cam, Upgrade Finishes Throughout, Full Belanger Exhaust, Billet Fuel Rails, Breather System, Gen-4 Ignition Conversion, and Carbon Coil Covers.

The base package would be a standard Custom Cam, Stock Finishes, Gen-4 headers, Gen-4 Chrome Fuel Rails, OE Breather System, and Gen-3 Ignition Coils/Wires. Performance wise it wont be a gigantic difference... but appearance wise, the difference is night and day.

The Gen-4 heads and intake manifold literally cannot even be compared to Gen-2 and 3 parts. They are vastly improved, in every way shape and form, and use some of the newest technology throughout. Smooth castings, CNC chambers and throats, better valve angles, larger valves, fully machines valves, hollow stem intake valves, lightweight retainers and locks w/beehive springs, reinforced rocker pedestals w/low inertia roller fulcrum rockers... to name a few. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 11:16:50 AM by Viper Specialty » Logged
Dan Lesser, Owner
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Dart451
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »

Tom's package is amazing looking.

What do thegen 4 flow vs gen 2 and 3? or hp difference?

Just trying to get a feel for $$ vs power difference.
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 01:07:39 PM »

Tom's package is amazing looking.

What do thegen 4 flow vs gen 2 and 3? or hp difference?

Just trying to get a feel for $$ vs power difference.


According to the sheet that I have:

Gen-1: Int- 200, Ex- 175
Gen-2: Int- 240, Ex- 185
Gen-3: Int- 255, Ex- 200
Gen-4: Int- 325, Ex- 225

And I can tell you... the Gen-4 numbers above are on the lower side. I have seen independent tests as high as 350. Its not just the heads, the Gen-4 intake manifold is WORLDS better than anything else that ever came on a Viper, and is approaching what you would find on a purpose built professional level race car. In terms of manifold performance, from Low to High it goes 1-3-2-------4. The Gen-2 is a great long-runner design with decent volume, but is too restrictive and is a huge pain to modify, while the Gen-3 has lower volume, and is short runner, but is less restrictive and easier to modify. Gen-4 is long runner, large volume, and is not restrictive.
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Dan Lesser, Owner
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Dart451
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 01:52:48 PM »

Thats what I was wanting for starting points. Thanks for all the info.

I was thinking the gen 3 heads flowed alot more then gen 2, sure they can pick up more with porting.

Then gen 4 is a amazing jump.

Surprised to see the gen 2 intake is better then a gen 3 in stock form.

How do styker heads compare to gen4?
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 04:07:16 PM »

Thats what I was wanting for starting points. Thanks for all the info.

I was thinking the gen 3 heads flowed alot more then gen 2, sure they can pick up more with porting.

Then gen 4 is a amazing jump.

Surprised to see the gen 2 intake is better then a gen 3 in stock form.

How do styker heads compare to gen4?
I've been wanting to do heads on mine for a long time now. With all my research, the strykers are the way to go on a gen2. Bolt them on with no further mods. They flow very similar to the gen 4s. They are on the expensive side of things though like $7-8000. But at least you can bolt up a roe in the future if in need for more power. And the roe in my opinion is still the best bang for the buck. Now strykers and a roe ,that would be a really fun street car. If $$$ is a concern than greg good or jm ported gen2's will be an even better bang for $$$. My 0.02
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 04:23:49 PM »

Thats what I was wanting for starting points. Thanks for all the info.

I was thinking the gen 3 heads flowed alot more then gen 2, sure they can pick up more with porting.

Then gen 4 is a amazing jump.

Surprised to see the gen 2 intake is better then a gen 3 in stock form.

How do styker heads compare to gen4?

Striker heads flow very similar numbers to Gen-4 heads.

While bolting on Strikers is the EASIEST way to go, it is not the best in my opinion. The strikers are limited to the manifolds bolted onto them, and as a result, the Gen-2/3 manifolds become their restrictions instead.

When you factor in the number of default changes by going to a Gen-4 setup, it is really a bargain.

Thr strikers are 7-8000 for heads, cam & rockers.

The Gen-4 package is 13-14000, but includes Heads, Cam, Rockers, Valve Covers, Intake Manifold, Headers, Coil Covers, Wires, Throttle Bodies, Injectors, Fuel Rails, Air Filters, and a tune.

Quite a bit more, wouldn't you say? haha
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jtin
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 05:03:27 PM »

Striker heads flow very similar numbers to Gen-4 heads.

While bolting on Strikers is the EASIEST way to go, it is not the best in my opinion. The strikers are limited to the manifolds bolted onto them, and as a result, the Gen-2/3 manifolds become their restrictions instead.

When you factor in the number of default changes by going to a Gen-4 setup, it is really a bargain.

Thr strikers are 7-8000 for heads, cam & rockers.

The Gen-4 package is 13-14000, but includes Heads, Cam, Rockers, Valve Covers, Intake Manifold, Headers, Coil Covers, Wires, Throttle Bodies, Injectors, Fuel Rails, Air Filters, and a tune.

Quite a bit more, wouldn't you say? haha
The manifold I agree with,but if you go roe then it gets cancelled out anyways.Gen4 equals no roe option in the future thats all. So F/I will have to be turbo or paxton. As for the rest of the stuff, most of it is just because they dont interchange with the gen2 parts.
As far as turn key N/A, yes do the gen4 swap and make the best power possible. And also get the most reliabillity.
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 06:03:53 PM »

Drive a Gen 4 and see if it's enough for you.  Not anywhere near enough for me. 

Although the Gen 4 does have the big hp (540rwhp) that compares to a Roe blower at 5psi, it doesn't have the massive torque of the Roe and nothing compares to the Roe at 2,000rpm.

I think that the Roe can go on a Gen 4 ... Jus call Sean and ask him to design the intake?  Since you're still running a Gen 2 ecu the Vec 3 can make up the tune.  The Gen 4 and Roe would probably go about as good as my Sapphire GTS, but cost about $30,000 to do to yours?  You could just buy mine for $50K.

I think that if you want the Gen 4 power and have an obsession in staying stock, then the Gen 4 (or maybe wait for the Gen 5? LOL) is your best choice.  If you want power the Gen 4 is a little pricey for a little over a hundred hp

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1999 1200rwhp TT GTS - ART, 2001 Roe sc GTS- (4 sale), 440 Duster restomod (sold), 3x Stealth TTs, 92 Daytona IROC with T3, 580whp/1080wtq Cummins pickup.
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