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The VIPER Garage  |  Generation-specific Viper Forums  |  SRT10 Viper Discussions  |  700 HP N/A Gen 4
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Author Topic: 700 HP N/A Gen 4  (Read 29279 times)
shooter_t1
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« on: December 07, 2011, 05:28:47 PM »

So I am looking to get 700 hp (crank) n/a in my Gen 4. I want to be able to track it just like I do now. After reading the heads discussion in the Gen 1/2 section, I'm confused. I figured I would need headers, intake, heads, hf cats, mopar ecm, and bolt up to the Corsa I already have. Now after reading that thread and what Dan (Viper Specialties) said about Gen 4 heads flowing pretty good out of the gate, do I really need to spend the approx 3K on heads.?

Thanks,
Robert
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 09:16:26 PM »

I would guess headers, HF Cats, Corsa and ECU would be good for 650bhp and intake mods good for another 20bhp?  That should get you close.  Not much gain in the Gen 4 heads.  CNC'd ports means there should be no port matching to be done.

Dan?
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KNG SNKE
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 05:40:07 AM »

A local of mine hit 599whp with mopar ecu headers and exhaust.  That is over 700bhp.
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Too Blue
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 08:38:05 AM »



My 08 was on the dyno two weeks ago. I have a Hi-perf Mopar ECU, headers, exhaust, no cats.

Pulled 570 RWHP. (650-670 BHP?)

I have been told by several "Viper people" that porting the heads is not worth the $3K.

They did tell me that porting the intake is a good idea... Should pick up about 20 RWHP



If it were me, and I track the car, IMO the $3K would be better spent toward a set of Motons.


 
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 11:21:49 AM »

Do not touch your heads unless the manifold is ported first, it is pointless. Either way, no, IMHO, the heads are not worth porting unless you are looking to set some kind of an N/A record and need every single last horsepower available... and that would be a couple hundred over 700. The heads flow good enough in stock form, better than pretty much any Gen-1, 2, or 3 ported casting and about the same as Strikers. Even the Big Power TT cars would be more benefiting from leaving them alone and keeping the extra material in the heads for strength, as they flow more than adequate as is.

Go with:

-ECU
-Filter
-Headers & Exhaust
-Manifold Porting
-Spark Plugs RE7PYP6

EASY over 600 RW on most cars, which would be a hair over 700 crank.
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 11:33:18 AM »

Using factory specs ... 600bhp = 540rwhp.  Headers, exhaust ECU would normally be classed as 650bhp.  Dick Winkles (SRT engine engineer) said that the ACRX got Mahle forged pistons which only lost 4bp over the "cast".  Dick said that some of the forged pistons they tested lost as much as 40bhp.  

As far as RWHP and BHP (crank) the older cars were usually a 18% loss between crank and wheel hp.  With the advanced design of the newer accessories (power steering pump, alternator, waterpump etc. our cars seem to run about 13% loss to the wheels.    AWD used to lose about 33% but newer should be much less than that.  

As far as the head porting on the Gen 4s they come CNC'd from the factory and although Dick said that the heads don't have "much left" to be gained from porting, I did read that there is about 20hp there.  Depending on if you're competeing in a class where everyone else has ported heads or not would decide if the head porting is worth the $3K.  You could insulate the bottom of your cold air intake system or buy the 'kit' from Mopar Performance (?) and save the 18bhp loss to operating heat?  More SRT info.  Not sure if they ever offered it or not, but they had plans to install it on the newest Gen 4s.  They said that they were expecting to get it done because initial talks with the EMMISSIONS people said that insulating the airbox and tubes would not affect certifications.  The insulation kit they showed was amazing.  Form fitted very thin aluminium with a thin layer of pink insulation under the airbox and intake tubes!  

 :o
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shooter_t1
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 01:42:43 PM »

Do not touch your heads unless the manifold is ported first, it is pointless. Either way, no, IMHO, the heads are not worth porting unless you are looking to set some kind of an N/A record and need every single last horsepower available... and that would be a couple hundred over 700. The heads flow good enough in stock form, better than pretty much any Gen-1, 2, or 3 ported casting and about the same as Strikers. Even the Big Power TT cars would be more benefiting from leaving them alone and keeping the extra material in the heads for strength, as they flow more than adequate as is.

Go with:

-ECU
-Filter
-Headers & Exhaust
-Manifold Porting
-Spark Plugs RE7PYP6

EASY over 600 RW on most cars, which would be a hair over 700 crank.

Thank you sir. That's kinda what I figured after reading the other thread. I have smooth tubes with stock airbox and K&N filter, plus a Corsa track exhaust.  What brand of Spark plus are those #RE7PYP6?
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 03:35:59 PM »

Thank you sir. That's kinda what I figured after reading the other thread. I have smooth tubes with stock airbox and K&N filter, plus a Corsa track exhaust.  What brand of Spark plus are those #RE7PYP6?

Champion, double platinum, 3 heat ranges less than stock.
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Too Blue
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 05:47:11 AM »

I noticed you mentioned "filter"

I tried a KN filter. It kept triggering a cel and put car in limp mode. I checked around and it seems a lot of other people were having the same problem. Apparently the oil in the filter would mess with the MAP sensor. I put the OE filter back on and CEL went away.

Have you heard of this?

BTW, SHOOTER t1.... The Mopar controller will really "wake up" your car. Especially in the midrange. Which is obviously ideal for a track car


Do not touch your heads unless the manifold is ported first, it is pointless. Either way, no, IMHO, the heads are not worth porting unless you are looking to set some kind of an N/A record and need every single last horsepower available... and that would be a couple hundred over 700. The heads flow good enough in stock form, better than pretty much any Gen-1, 2, or 3 ported casting and about the same as Strikers. Even the Big Power TT cars would be more benefiting from leaving them alone and keeping the extra material in the heads for strength, as they flow more than adequate as is.

Go with:

-ECU
-Filter
-Headers & Exhaust
-Manifold Porting
-Spark Plugs RE7PYP6

EASY over 600 RW on most cars, which would be a hair over 700 crank.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 05:51:02 AM by Too Blue » Logged
shooter_t1
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 08:58:51 AM »

I noticed you mentioned "filter"

I tried a KN filter. It kept triggering a cel and put car in limp mode. I checked around and it seems a lot of other people were having the same problem. Apparently the oil in the filter would mess with the MAP sensor. I put the OE filter back on and CEL went away.

Have you heard of this?

BTW, SHOOTER t1.... The Mopar controller will really "wake up" your car. Especially in the midrange. Which is obviously ideal for a track car



Just a thought Too Blue, but I seem to remember the early 08's having a problem with stuff like that. I "think" a reflash of the pcm was done mid year and it solved the problem. I have a K&N in my 09 and have never had a problem. I noticed you have a Mopar pcm now. Did you try the K&N filter with it or the stock one.?.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 12:23:52 PM »

I noticed you mentioned "filter"

I tried a KN filter. It kept triggering a cel and put car in limp mode. I checked around and it seems a lot of other people were having the same problem. Apparently the oil in the filter would mess with the MAP sensor. I put the OE filter back on and CEL went away.

Have you heard of this?



Over-Oiled filters can cause problems like that with the MAF, yes. just blow out/dab the filter media until the excess oil is removed, and you should be fine.
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acrvprc
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 04:24:42 PM »


Shooter, I've got ported heads, picked up about 20rwhp.  Lower hanging fruit like headers, exhaust, intake  and ECU run $100 per rwhp.  Total cost of heads (with accessories and install) was closer to $200 per rwhp.  There are variances in header hp between bellanger, american and M&M.  If you the want absolute higest peak number ask Dan L, Dan C, Todd @ A&C and some of the others for recommendations.

A thread on the Alley from somebody in TX (tuner?) said Greg Good did their heads and they made 650 rwhp.  I asked what the heads made and didn't get an answer.  Maybe Greg found a way to get 30 or better??


Dan, why the champions?  What did you see??

THX  Mike
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 08:43:03 PM »

ACRVPC brings up a good point on the headers.

 ACRX headers (5 into 1) made 5rwtq more than Belangers with the pickles.  I've been getting told that Dodge is like all the other corporations and "Money talks".  The SRT engineers said that the Amercian Headers were also used because they were just over half price and saved the ACRX buyers money.  Dodge did get a much better deal that you or I can get though.

ACRX headers are not temperature friendly though.  Belanger headers are Jet hot coated inside and out for lower temperatures in the engine compartment, not the American headers.  That should make a difference although probably not much on an engine dyno?  I was told that the ACRX's have their ECUs moved from the stock location because of the intense heat issue.   

Although the Belangers are 3 piece headers each side, the American headers are only 2.  I figure that the Belangers win in the ease of installation department? 

There is also the useage that should be considered.  No specs for street cars were discussed by the SRT team.  I would assume that the temperature coatings are worth the choice if your car is streetable.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 09:06:32 PM »


Dan, why the champions?  What did you see??

THX  Mike

Higher horsepower cars running hot-laps, hot weather pulls, etc appear to occasionally pull timing due to light detonation. Nothing major, but it will cost you power. The colder plugs keep this at bay, with no downsides. Same plugs used on the ACRX, and same plugs used on our 631 RWHP Gen-4 w/stock heads  :driving:
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Dan Lesser, Owner
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shooter_t1
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 09:14:42 PM »

ACRVPRC I am gonna go with Dan's recommendation and not do the heads. The return (HP) is not worth it to me. I have better places for the $3000.00

Ted those ACRX headers cost Dodge $900 a pair....much less then we would pay. But then I don't plan on placing an order for 50 pairs either. I will go with Belangers most likely. Maybe JonB will give me a smoking deal.:)

700 hp @ the crank should help me deal with the nanny nation Gen V's when they come out.
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