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The VIPER Garage  |  Generation-specific Viper Forums  |  SRT10 Viper Discussions  |  700 HP N/A Gen 4
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Author Topic: 700 HP N/A Gen 4  (Read 25836 times)
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 09:33:49 PM »

Shooter, I wasn't going to go into specifics on the dollars and the other stories, but now that YOU brought it up there was about a $600 difference.  I thought about mentioning that the SRT guys have Belangers on their cars - but that was 2nd hand info.  I recommend the Belangers for a lot of reasons and one of them being that Lou has helped the Viper people out and donated to the club (thanks to JonB) events many times.  I spoke with people that had their Belangers custom made by Lou (Steve) and some were made without pickles.  No one spoke to gas mileage of either type of headers ... which I thought should have been a factor for "best choice".

700bhp should keep you up with what Ralph told us to expect next year, unless the new Viper get a double clutch trans.  Not sure where you live or if emmissions will allow you, but I would really like to see the performance of the Gen 4 without the camincam.  SRT engineers said that it is an "emmissions only" modification. 
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 10:28:47 PM »

 Not sure where you live or if emmissions will allow you, but I would really like to see the performance of the Gen 4 without the camincam.  SRT engineers said that it is an "emmissions only" modification.  

Ted,

You should be reading in between the lines on this. What SRT says should be taken within the constraints of its context. Just because they were "forced" into adding the Cam-In-Cam for emissions compliance, and the fact that they are restricted on what they can do with it based on that fact, does not mean that it is ONLY capable of helping emissions. There is a reason that Gen-4's with Pectel or Motec ECU's make far more power with substantially better driveability in any apples-to-apples comparison between Built Gen-1/2/3 and 4 cars. That reason IS that camshaft. Cam Profile to Cam Profile, having an articulating camshaft is always, and I mean always, a better thing to have then NOT having one. The Gen-4's run a pretty aggressive lobe and a decent lift, much more so than the earlier cars- and the only reason they can do that and still drive as well as they do while passing emissions IS the camshaft design. It allows you to tame that camshaft when it is not being utilized, and dial it back when desired.

The Camshaft, when PROGRAMMED properly and not on an emissions-based program, would produce more torque all through the mid-range and equal horsepower when compared to an identical static camshaft designed for peak power. In short, between two cars, one with and one without, the one with will drive better, be more responsive, and be faster- and there is no way around that fact.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 10:34:48 PM by Viper Specialty » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 08:25:22 AM »

Shooter, yeah I understand, the cost-benefit.  There is 20 plus there, maybe GG has found more.

Ted, don't know enought about those American-BBG headers.  I have bellangers and that was the only way to go in early 09. Interesting on the cost to Dodge, wonder if they would have taken bellangers if the cost was the same?  Similar pricing story on the KW's, they gave them away to get their name on ACR's.  Most everyone has switched to Moton's, except the X guys.

Dan, thanks so much for the note on the plugs.  Limiting detonation is a definate plus.  I'm mostly tracking the car and the mopar ECU seems to pull timing at any octane below 95 (on DC's dyno).  Since I have to start w/91 gettting to 95 is really costly, now about $10.galon for 100 unleaded out here!  I also want to loop back soon with you and talk about what you've done with the Pectel and Motec systems.  I was talking about you with Todd at the VCA party last week.  He says your a great guy too.  Mike
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 09:45:13 AM »

Dan, thanks so much for the note on the plugs.  Limiting detonation is a definate plus.  I'm mostly tracking the car and the mopar ECU seems to pull timing at any octane below 95 (on DC's dyno).  Since I have to start w/91 gettting to 95 is really costly, now about $10.galon for 100 unleaded out here!  I also want to loop back soon with you and talk about what you've done with the Pectel and Motec systems.  I was talking about you with Todd at the VCA party last week.  He says your a great guy too.  Mike


Mike- No problem. We don't do a whole lot with MoTeC due to the fact that while it was available before Pectel, it was never and still isn't a native V10 controller. The Pectel is of the same quality, more options, faster processor, and similar software, but is a native V10/V12 controller. Because of that fact, the hardware and wiring comes in considerably cheaper because you only need 1 box to run the whole car, rather than 3+ boxes and a dozen configuration options with the MoTeC. Don't get me wrong, MoTeC is excellent, but they really nickel-and-dime you to death with running V10/V12, especially when sequential, variable cam, and drive-by-wire. Their focus is 2/4/6/8 cylinders, and they make sure you know it, lol.

Have done plenty with Pectel if you have any questions.
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 01:00:04 PM »

Dan, I wasn't reading "between the lines" just repeating what the SRT engineers said to us at VOI X in Detroit at the tech session.  "Absolutely NO performance gain from the cam-in-cam."  quote.

Dick Winkles said that the 800bhp Gen 4 engine that he built for the Challenger Drag Pack extra 200bhp was from removing the cam-in-cam and using a solid lifter big roller.  There was lots of other small changes like cable TBs of course.

Ted
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 03:43:56 PM »

Dan, I wasn't reading "between the lines" just repeating what the SRT engineers said to us at VOI X in Detroit at the tech session.  "Absolutely NO performance gain from the cam-in-cam."  quote.

Dick Winkles said that the 800bhp Gen 4 engine that he built for the Challenger Drag Pack extra 200bhp was from removing the cam-in-cam and using a solid lifter big roller.  There was lots of other small changes like cable TBs of course.

Ted

Ted- thats my point, right there in what you said:

"Absolutely NO performance gain" = We can make just as much peak horsepower without it.

Sure, that is TRUE, because the optimal cam design for peak horsepower will always be the same on the same engine- it does not need to be variable. However, a cam that is optimal for peak power, will NOT be optimal anywhere else in the RPM range- it CANT be. All Camshafts designed for Peak Power [or any other specific range for that matter] are tuned for a harmonic in the engine air-flow. If you aren't at the point that harmonic occurs, you have a camshaft that is not 100% optimal. A Variable cam can account for these changes and ALWAYS be optimal. Look at pretty much any other use of VTEC or Variable Cam's on the face of the earth. They ALL give better engine performance. What they said is a play on words, surely you can see that. The only reason they said it was to try and keep people from altering the cam programming. Mopar would be perfectly capable of removing the G4's Variable Cam, and putting in a solid cam that had the correct grind for 600 horsepower. The engine would make the same peak power as the Variable version, but it would have LESS power in the rest of the curve, and not have a chance in hell of passing emissions.

No matter what, a Variable cam of equal design is BETTER than a non variable camshaft. Don't think for a second that the 800 horsepower engine is making that power just because the Variable Cam was deleted- it is making that power because the solid cam installed is properly tuned for that RPM range, in the same way a Variable Cam can be. Believe me, the reason they did it with a Solid is DOLLARS. It was FAR cheaper and easier to run that solid camshaft than to have a special variable-cam made, and it was FAR cheaper to run that engine on a JTEC w/manual instead of a VENOM controller w/FBW. The JTEC can't even control a variable-cam or FBW. Coincidence? I think not. If they made an alternate lift version of the Variable Cam equal to the solid they are running and dropped it into the 800 Drag engine w/a venom controller, you better believe it would crap all over that 800 horsepower engine, even though it makes the "same" peak power.

You just seem to post a lot with regard to talking down about the Gen-4 Cam-In-Cam, FBW, etc and other parts as if they are a problem rather than an asset. I am trying to beat into you the fact that they are a HUGE asset, NOT a handicap by any stretch of the imagination. The programming is the only problem, and that can be corrected! Not only do you gain the "missing performance" from emissions compliance, but you also gain all of the advantages as well. Case in point: By being able to program the Cam and FBW, not only could you gain back the throttle response of a Cable [Hell, you could make it MORE responsive], and gain back the missing lower-end power on the G4, but you could EXCEED the older engines in low-mid ranges, and even create an auto-blip downshift configuration with the FBW system that would absolutely destroy a G1/2/3 or stock 4 car by comparison in driveability, power, and ease of/shifting speeds.

Its not the hardware, its the software holding these systems back.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 10:34:35 PM by Viper Specialty » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »

Ted- thats my point, right there in what you said:

"Absolutely NO performance gain" = We can make just as much peak horsepower without it.

Sure, that is TRUE, because the optimal cam design for peak horsepower will always be the same on the same engine- it does not need to be variable. However, a cam that is optimal for peak power, will NOT be optimal anywhere else in the RPM range- it CANT be. All Camshafts designed for Peak Power [or any other specific range for that matter] are tuned for a harmonic in the engine air-flow. If you aren't at the point that harmonic occurs, you have a camshaft that is not 100% optimal. A Variable cam can account for these changes and ALWAYS be optimal. Look at pretty much any other use of VTEC or Variable Cam's on the face of the earth. They ALL give better engine performance. What they said is a play on words, surely you can see that. The only reason they said it was to try and keep people from altering the cam programming. Mopar would be perfectly capable of removing the G4's Variable Cam, and putting in a solid cam that had the correct grind for 600 horsepower. The engine would make the same peak power as the Variable version, but it would have LESS power in the rest of the curve, and not have a chance in hell of passing emissions.

No matter what, a Variable cam of equal design is BETTER than a non variable camshaft. Don't think for a second that the 800 horsepower engine is making that power just because the Variable Cam was deleted- it is making that power because the solid cam installed is LARGER than the variable cam it replaced and is properly tuned for that RPM range. Believe me, the reason they did it with a Solid is DOLLARS. It was FAR cheaper and easier to run that solid camshaft than to have a special variable-cam made, and it was FAR cheaper to run that engine on a JTEC w/manual instead of a VENOM controller w/FBW. The JTEC can't even control a variable-cam or FBW. Coincidence? I think not. If they made an alternate lift version of the Variable Cam equal to the solid they are running and dropped it into the 800 Drag engine w/a venom controller, you better believe it would crap all over that 800 horsepower engine, even though it makes the "same" peak power.

You just seem to post a lot with regard to talking down about the Gen-4 Cam-In-Cam, FBW, etc and other parts as if they are a problem rather than an asset. I am trying to beat into you the fact that they are a HUGE asset, NOT a handicap by any stretch of the imagination. The programming is the only problem, and that can be corrected! Not only do you gain the "missing performance" from emissions compliance, but you also gain all of the advantages as well. Case in point: By being able to program the Cam and FBW, not only could you gain back the throttle response of a Cable [Hell, you could make it MORE responsive], and gain back the missing lower-end power on the G4, but you could EXCEED the older engines in low-mid ranges, and even create an auto-blip downshift configuration with the FBW system that would absolutely destroy a G1/2/3 or stock 4 car by comparison in driveability, power, and ease of/shifting speeds.

Its not the hardware, its the software holding these systems back.



Awesome post Dan. Thank you for taking the time to educate us. The ONLY thing I miss from my S/C Gen 3 is the throttle control/feel. Although I am used to it, my Gen 4 throttle can feel vague at times.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2011, 05:47:29 PM »

Awesome post Dan. Thank you for taking the time to educate us. The ONLY thing I miss from my S/C Gen 3 is the throttle control/feel. Although I am used to it, my Gen 4 throttle can feel vague at times.

What you are feeling is the Pedal Gain Rate. The Gen-4 pedal-to-throttle ratio is not linear. The first 25% of the pedal may only give you 10% throttle plate movement, while the last 25% gives you 40%. This was done to smooth out the parking lot surge issues and make the car easier to drive from a stop. But... all it really did was piss everyone off and make the car a nightmare to Heel/Toe. The fine position correction is also likely underpowered [The motor duty cycle to throttle plate position error control] which will make the plate "laggy" and "unpredictable" on small movements.

These settings are all completely variable in something like a Pectel or MoTeC. You can make the response instant and the gain so large that touching the pedal will make it jump to 3K... its all how you set it up.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2011, 06:28:45 PM »

So you're saying that someone made these increased power camshafts for that?  I've never heard of any option such as that.  I wasn't disagreeing about the theory.

The way SRT said it, the V10s have misfire issues and low end emissions 'issues' - the CIC solved that all the way to 2017!  

I do remember you saying that the hesitation could be retuned out.  But, at the cost of ?
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 10:58:47 AM »

Dan, learned a ton in those two write-ups, thanks!!!

I can see the logic of cam in cam and FBW for power, emissions and drivability.  Just thought about the fact that my 08 never bucks or stumples at low speeds , now I know why.

I didn't think of the FBW ability to be programmed to blip on downshifts, that would be great as I can't consistently do that in this 08.

I'll touch base after the Holiday's with you on adding the Pectel and you programing and suggestions.

thanks soooooo much!!  Mike
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 10:32:06 PM »

So you're saying that someone made these increased power camshafts for that?  I've never heard of any option such as that.  I wasn't disagreeing about the theory.

The way SRT said it, the V10s have misfire issues and low end emissions 'issues' - the CIC solved that all the way to 2017!  

I do remember you saying that the hesitation could be retuned out.  But, at the cost of ?

Ted-

-Are you referring to a larger variable cam? No, not to my knowledge does one exist. There isn't a lot of point, as the stock G4 cam actually is quite large. The VAST majority of power from the 800 Horse engine is not because of the Cam itself, it is all of the peripherals. Proof of this is all around: Gen-4's with stock cams and stock heads put out 750 Crank WITH accessories. The 800 horse engine has no accessories to get that number. That cam is doing VERY little if anything above and beyond what the G4 cam could. The primary reason its Solid, is again, the JTEC controller.

-The V10 misfire issue is partially Cam related, and partially ECU & ignition related. The G4 has a more powerful and precise ECU & ignition system for this reason as well.

-The hesitation can be tuned out at NO cost, assuming you mean cost as in "downside". If you mean dollars, you would of course need a standalone with FBW capability.

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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 01:40:53 AM »

You lost me Dan.  750crank Gen 4s?  This thread is trying to get to 700bhp

Gen 4s go 11s, the Chally goes 9.2ET.   No cic and no electronic throttle.  I think the drive by wire is so that the computer can keep you from doing a brake stand, right?  Safety feature so our Vipers can't "go Toyota". 

I'm thinking that your FBW is a $10-20,000 fix? 

I'm kind of old fashioned Dan.  Don't like quiet smooth running smooth riding cars.  I like loud, rumbly, rough running stupid fast cars and prefer manual brakes and foot controlled throttle.  TC is an old arguement and I would just prefer to have a "NOT ME" program for driving my car.  Like the "Valet Key" that came with Stealths and wouldn't open the trunk of glove boxes, I would prefer a E throttle for limiting Valet/kids/wife driveability to 10% of throttle.  No what they designed it for, but THAT would have been an idea that I would have gone for. 

In my TT GTS does the AEM control the boost and rpm?  Maybe a program for Valets - 0 boost and rpm max at 3000?  Lol. 
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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 07:14:57 AM »

I'm sure Dodge was looking ahead when they did the electronic TB's because that's the modern method of implementing stability / traction control which is now govt mandated.  Thank you nannies [as sarcastic as possible]!

On older gen Vettes they did it with the cable TB and the cruise control servo which was in the cable run, not a separate cable and servo as in MOPAR.  Felt like a broken motor mount when it activated.  Always turned it off as soon as I started the car.

I'm sure the feeling can be improved without going to a PecTel once someone cracks the NGC PCM for the Viper.  But until that time I'd still be wishing for a cable.  I know I absolutely hate the feeling in my SRT Challenger 6spd, even with throttle boost on the DSP programmer.  It's just not the same as a cable.  Wife's P car has the same lame feeling in the throttle. 

I've been watching Dan's latest project with great interest especially after talking to him on the phone about it.  To me upgrading my GenIII and having all the things I like as well is just a bonus and probably less than the expense of going to a GenIV and getting a lot of stuff I don't like / want.

I don't mind the lumpy bumpy non-cic cam, drive-ability can be tuned even with those and it's just less points of failure, less complexity both mechanical and electrical / software.  JTEC baby !!! 

Just my own no so humble 0.02 worth.
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 09:37:14 AM »

You lost me Dan.  750crank Gen 4s?  This thread is trying to get to 700bhp

Ted- You really are lost, lol. I am making a POINT. What I have been talking about the last few posts has ZERO to do with the thread topic directly.

Gen 4s go 11s, the Chally goes 9.2ET.   No cic and no electronic throttle.  I think the drive by wire is so that the computer can keep you from doing a brake stand, right?  Safety feature so our Vipers can't "go Toyota". 

ummm.... what? Both the Gen-4 and Challenger HAVE FBW. What does braking have to do with anything here directly?

I'm thinking that your FBW is a $10-20,000 fix? 

Yes, it is. The hardware isn't cheap with dealing with these kinds of systems and a V-10. There is ways to bring the cost down, but anyone who goes that direction will get a lot more than just a pedal fix.

I'm kind of old fashioned Dan.  Don't like quiet smooth running smooth riding cars.  I like loud, rumbly, rough running stupid fast cars and prefer manual brakes and foot controlled throttle.  TC is an old arguement and I would just prefer to have a "NOT ME" program for driving my car.  Like the "Valet Key" that came with Stealths and wouldn't open the trunk of glove boxes, I would prefer a E throttle for limiting Valet/kids/wife driveability to 10% of throttle.  No what they designed it for, but THAT would have been an idea that I would have gone for. 

Yeah, and that can be done with the flip of a switch. That's why advanced controllers exist- so you can make the car do whatever you want.

In my TT GTS does the AEM control the boost and rpm?  Maybe a program for Valets - 0 boost and rpm max at 3000?  Lol. 

Of course it does. But RPM is the only option. 0 boost is not possible, the systems don't work like that, you will always have a minimum boost.
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 09:44:20 AM »

I'm sure the feeling can be improved without going to a PecTel once someone cracks the NGC PCM for the Viper.    


It is highly unlikely that the Venom PCM will be cracked due to low production numbers, and even if it is, it is unlikely that much control will be available for the FBW system. Even Pectel keeps those capabilities under lock and key. You have to request it, tell them what its for, and be a known competent tuner before you are given access to it. It is a MEGA liability to give joe-blow access to FBW control systems. Chances are, they will not put it in the program for this reason.

I don't mind the lumpy bumpy non-cic cam, drive-ability can be tuned even with those and it's just less points of failure, less complexity both mechanical and electrical / software.  JTEC baby !!!

While that's true of course, capabilities are capabilities. The CIC system will always be able to do things that the Solids cant. Its just the way it is. Also, to date I am not aware of any Gen-4 Cam Failures. Its just not an "end of the world" product. If you have it, use it. If you dont, its not the end of the world.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 10:06:39 AM by Viper Specialty » Logged
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